Johnny Football praises the Gator defense

[Escambia94]

Johnny Manziel may very well win the Heisman as a redshirt freshman tonight, and only one defense really contained him--the Gator defense. Manziel praised the Gators as being one of the top defenses his team faced, and that they were very quick [Sun Sentinel]. That being said, let us debunk a couple myths, and then look at his games.

First, Aggie fans will say that the only reason aTm lost is that it wast their first game of the season. Well, the Aggies lost to LSU 19-24 later in the season as they got better against a similar defense and offense as the Gators--a team that Florida beat 14-6. It would be reasonable to assume that no matter where in the schedule aTm played Florida or LSU that it would be a low scoring affair, and aTm needs to pile 4 scores onto an opponent in order to win games. On top of that, there is no guarantee that they would have beaten Louisiana Tech in their first game of the season, considering how they barely beat them in the rescheduled game in week 7, 59-57. Are you ****ing kidding me! Where is the defense? Johnny Manziel was the Aggie defense--just score so many points that the opponent cannot keep up! Here are Johnny Football's offensive outputs per game.

1. Louisiana Tech - postponed
2. Florida 23/30, 173 yds, 5.8 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 60 yds rushing, 1 TD, L 17-20, 233 yds tot off
3. SMU 20/36, 294 yds, 8.2 ypa, 4 TD, 0 INT, 124 yds rushing, 2 TD, W 48-3
4. SC State 15/20, 174 yds, 8.7 ypa, 3 TD, 0 INT, 78 yds rushing, 2 TD, W 70-14, 244 yds tot off
5. Arkansas 29/38, 453 yds, 11.9 ypa, 3 TD, 0 INT, 104 yds rushing, 1 TD, W 58-10
6. Ole Miss 17/26, 191 yds, 7.3 ypa, 1 TD, 2 INT, 129 yds rushing, 1 TD, W 30-27
7. Louisiana Tech 24/40, 395 yds, 9.9 ypa, 3 TD, 1 INT, 181 yds rushing, 3 TD, W 59-57
8. LSU 29/56, 276 yds, 4.9 ypa, 0 TD, 3 INT, 82 yds rushing, 1 TD, L 19-24
9. Auburn 16/23, 260 yds, 11.3 ypa, 2 TD, 0 INT, 90 yds rushing, 3 TD, W 63-21
10. Mississippi State 30/36, 311 yds, 8.6 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 129 yds rushing, 2 TD, W 38-13
11. Alabama 24/31, 253 yds, 8.2 ypa, 2 TD, 0 INT, 92 yds rushing, 0 TD, W 29-24
12. Sam Houston State 14/20, 267 yds, 13.4 ypa, 3 TD, 1 INT, 100 yds rushing, 2 TD, W 47-28
13. Missouri 32/44, 372 yds, 8.5 ypa, 3 TD, 1 INT, 67 yds rushing, 2 TD, W 59-29

What this shows us is that, yes, Florida did keep Johnny Football to his lowest output in the season. If you are an aTM homer, you will argue that they only limited him because it was his first game, but look what powerhouse SC State did later in the season--limit him almost as much as Florida did. Also look how explosive La Tech was in all their games. There is no guarantee that aTm would have piled on 2 more points than La Tech in game 1 when they almost lost to them at midseason with a horrendous defensive stand. Then look what LSU did at midseason, and what Mizzou did in the end of the season. Their argument that Johnny football is unstoppable except when inexperienced is a fallacy. Good defense beat good offenses sometimes. It just so happens that Florida's defense was the best Johnny faced all year. The next best defense was LSU's, and he lost that game despite throwing for 3 TDs and 276 yds.

 

[Escambia94]

One last note on Johnny Manziel, because I am tired of seeing it on Twitter and Facebook... The Gators had no film on Manziel before the game, so they opened up with a very aggressive pursuit, got a few penalties, and then fell back into a vanilla offense where Manziel racked up 190 yards of offense in the first half. In the second half, the Gator defense adjusted and held Manziel to 49 yards of offense. 49 yards of offense! They did with NO FILM to prepare with! If the Gators played Manziel at the end of the season, they would have 12 games of film to prepare with--imagine what the defense would do to that poor sucker. LSU had a few games of film to prepare with and they intercepted him 3 times. Florida had 12 games of film to prepare for an equally mobile (albeit less talented) EJ Manuel and they held him to 230 total yards as well, but with 3 INTs as well. Manziel is LUCKY that he played Florida so early in the season, because the Gators went easy on him and failed to record an interception.

Don't get me wrong. Manziel is a good player, but this crop of Heisman candidates was not all that exciting. The good thing about Manziel is that he is a good kid.

 

[DRU2012]

Escambia94,
In addition to everything you have said, E-, all true and to-the-point:
Further more, no matter what anyone says, we didn't just "play DOWN to our competition" this season, we tended JUST as much to "PLAY UP" to them as well--and we TOO got "better and better", in that (except for "The Generous Gator-Bowl", otherwise known as "The 2012 Cocktail Party") the better the team we faced later in the year, the better we played-as-necessary to win.
Anyway, Johnny Heisman is a class-kid, no matter what: He didn't qualify ANYTHING in complimenting our defense--and has been consistent in that since his first-allowed public comments on the subject even before Heisman-weekend. It's the A&M fans who are looking for thin rationalizations--and though there are things to like about their student body's enthusiasm and loyalty, their wider fanbase is known more for its gap-toothed & in-bred ignorance and blindness than sense of honor or insight, and my personal experience just around HERE has only reinforced that image (Tonight, my neighbors-on-the-other-side of the fence, NONE of whom are TAMU grads, I can assure you--not that that is at all necessary out on the platforms, where they all knock-down serious cash that they piss away in liquor and beer when they're back on dry land--as if they needed an excuse are all drinking in celebration at "Hey! WHOOHOO!!! Johnny Football's got the HEISMAN!!! A FRESHMAN!!! WHOOOO HOOOO!"). Though the more "Be Good--Entertain Us!"-Longhorn fans are just as irritating in their own way and DEFINITELY NOT SEC-material, whereas the A&M/College Station fanbase quite clearly a closer, more deserving "fit" in our league, I DO see why there is natural enmity between Austin and College Station fans--and why the Aggies will develop their OWN deep rivalries naturally here in the SEC over time.)

 

[Escambia94]

The main reason that I wanted to get this post out there is that I wanted to park some of my data somewhere to invoke in future arguments with Aggie fans. Feel free to use some of it over the next few years as Johnny Football Fever surpasses Tebow Fever of yesteryear.

 

[DRU2012]

What Tebow "got", what "Johnny Heisman" MIGHT "get", and what remains-to-be-seen if the coaches and/or fans of A&M truly grasp is the degree to which your "young Heisman QB" developing as a "field general", his game-managing efficiency, the gathering and developing of talent around him, and his growing rapport with them all must come together and grow to make the whole offense better, so that the personal stats aren't NEARLY as important as your resulting production as a TEAM, if true success of the whole program is your goal, as it SHOULD be. Of course, I'm hoping they don't, that the short-sighted values and pressures of "selling seats and T-shirts" will continue influencing the priorities of a program that never HAS had EITHER kind of breakthrough, national attention before:
Will the university, the media or the FANS let this "celebrity phenom" be what he needs-to-be to grow himself and help to make his team better? Will the coaches and circumstances conspire to limit he and both the attention-to-detail required to gather further talent there, AND the hunker-down hard-work among all of them to get better and GROW together as-a-TEAM? #15 never won another Heisman, but won a National Championship, 19-straight wins (I THINK it was) and so CLOSE (a loss in ATLANTA against 'Bama) to the "repeat", back-to-back ones he came back his senior year for--and when asked, kept insisting that this was as a result of a conscious CHOICE of PRIORITIES on his and the WHOLE TEAM and PROGRAM'S part. Me I'm betting there's no one quite like Tim Tebow, and that good and decent as this kid may be, neither he nor his relationship with his team and/or program will ever be what it was, what it TOOK, to elevate our team and program into that special place and time that they occupied, that we ALL went to together because HE PUT US ON HIS SHOULDERS AND TOOK US THERE.
This A&M team will be pretty damn good, a decent mid-to-upper-tier SEC program, it turns out, for the duration of this QB's term-of-service, at least--BUT no National Championship-type-of-domination. Not enough defense--not even CLOSE. Well, that, and the fact that with Alabama, LSU and a couple of others all to face--and US about to TRULY "dominate" in seasons ahead, well, that's just how-it-IS: "Anyone, Anytime, Anywhere!!!"...and we've got BIGGER fish-to-fry...

 

[Escambia94]

I hope this is the start of a nice little rivalry where the Gators get to smash the Aggies and keep Manziel humble. Unfortunately the Aggies do not get the honor of getting smashed by the Gators next year in the regular season. Maybe we will see them in the SEC CG.

 

[DRU2012]

It's funny with TAMU, too, ever since I've been exposed to them more here in central-TX, well BEFORE their "arrival" in the SEC: Like their spirit and overall attitude as a TEAM, on-field and off...But their fans, not so much...YOU'LL see (though I'd guess you'd already KNOW what I'm talking about having lived in San Antone, right E-?)...

 

[Escambia94]

Having spent six years in San Antonio, what worries me is that today's Aggies are the Gators of the 1970s and 1980s. I ran across this article that compares the Aggies of today to the Gators right before the "Rise of the Gator" that Bear Bryant prophesied, that Florida was the sleeping giant about to be awakened.

What Bear Bryant meant was that in the late 1970s, the Florida economy was booming, richer people were moving in, the athletes were getting better, and the high school programs were getting better. If it were not for the Charley Pell and Galen Hall infractions it would have been the Florida Gators taking advantage of the Florida economic boom of the 1980s, not Miami and FSU. By the time Spurrier fulfilled the prophecy, Miami and FSU had gained a decade of momentum. Spurrier had to do more with less against those two schools. He always had problems beating those two schools, especially on their turf--they had more future NFL talent than the Gators. The Gators may have been coached better, but they were making do with walk-ons like Chris Doering while the 'Canes were doing well with Michael Irving and a host of NFL talent. While Miami was cranking out NFL-quality QBs, Florida failed to produce any longtime NFL QBs.

Now look at Texas A&M. They are are football program on the up-and-up, while the Texas Short-Horns are plateauing or plummeting. The Aggies will be snagging Texas talent that would have gone to Texas, Baylor, and Texas Tech in favor of the opportunity to play in the best conference in the world. On top of that, as the economy in the state of Florida is declining right now, the economy in Texas has been recession proof over the past few years. The talent in Texas is only going to get better. This may be the tail end of the talent hotbed in Florida, and the beginning of the talent hotbed in Texas. It will become more important for the Gators to beat aTM, and maybe snag some of those Texas athletes in addition to homegrown Florida boys.

 

[DRU2012]

[@Escambia94, : I'm not sure how many others here have the patience and/or even INTEREST in this level of detailed analysis, but I sure appreciate it and, despite my repeated promises-to-MYSELF to back-OFF on "extended diatribes", you always come up with SOMETHING interesting that provokes/encourages me (choose one) to respond...So, with apologies to just about everyone else here:]

Hmm...Food for thought, with interesting social analysis involved--though I DO have some argument with the data AND your conclusions: Above all, they ALL are based on certain assumptions, call them "social formulas" that are more complex than is implied AND possibly at least have alternate-outcomes and resultant-chain-of-reaction-paths leading away. These are ONGOING PROCESSES that bear closer scrutiny and analysis than simple "this, therefore THAT'" solutions. For example: In Texas, UT had first choice on EVERY ONE of these "great quarterbacks-from-Texas" you refer to, and in THIS case didn't get them BY (poor) CHOICE rather than particular socio-economic factors--as for FLORIDA's talent-base, the population shifts that have made Fla. a hotbed are ongoing and (already, in any case) well-advanced in raw numbers' terms to continue to influence in similar manner for generations to come--and, I could well argue, have complex social origins and interactions (and, some would say, health and physio-biological ones--though I would hesitate to go down THAT road due to controversial genetically-related overtones that I do NOT wish my arguments to be associated with) that will likely as any OTHER geographic ones continue to fuel BOTH states' continued rise in both quality AND quantity of talented players. The reason that there is a notable spread outward of such talent from the "traditional powers" in each state has to do almost entirely with the changes in NCAA scholarship rules, those that limit numbers of "student-athletes" offered scholarships each year, from each program, rules that have encouraged and spread PARITY among all of the major college programs (even the DEFINITION of what "major" includes), both within the states themselves and among states and programs further and further afield from these "fertile grounds for recruiting"--and hence more and more "good ones" are "slipping thru' the cracks" and ending up blossoming for schools that might never have gotten them in the past. Though the newer trends will continue with (for eg.) parity and the spread of talent from these populace "Sun Belt States", the trends we're seeing among some once-dominant programs in those states will with time be seen as the "mini-cycles", the temporary ebb-and-flow of talent and coaching that they always have been, just more pronounced now. It is not so much that "this is the tail end of our hotbeds", I don't think, but that our virtual MONOPOLY on more-and-more talent has ended (and here at least I agree and admire your insights regarding how, why and in-what-way that has affected relative growth, differing histories and timetables-for-turnaround all THAT has had on the former Big Three Programs within OUR state), and the consequences will continue to grow, spread and become even more obvious. In Texas, they are suffering as much as because of hidebound COACHING (and a failure to NOT-ACCEPT mediocre leadership, as for eg. in Texas' case), while in Florida the same process is just now being corrected at FSU (putting them still-earlier in that process-of-renewal than they have ever accepted), and in Miami only NOW just BEGINNING a process that they were able to keep short-circuiting by FURTHER corrupt-practices for a GENERATION--and which even now they try to "finesse" and limit, rather than face-and-rebuild..."The EEEwww" may NEVER even BEGIN to be really "back" until they face and absorb the consequences, make a clean BREALK with their past. Then again, "old habits die hard", and it has all worked before now: With their NCAA Executive and political connections, they MAY get back sooner this way--but they may ALSO continue to "die a death of a thousand cuts"--which is fine by ME!
Though there are myriad other factors that are arguable here, the last I will refer to is your point about economic trends' part and effect on the supply-of-players: While there will be alternative views, one shading across all manner of subtle forces at work, I would argue that, as the bulk-by-FAR of the talented young athletes who have fed the prep-systems--and upon-which those packed multi-tiered systems were built and continue-to-be-based-- are comprised of young men from "low-end-of-the-socio-economic-scale", "under-priveleged" and/or even "impoverished" backgrounds, a hunger for upward-mobility (in some cases even LITERAL "hunger"), like it or not, "right" or "wrong" it will NOT be any "improved financial upturn in those economies" that is likely to tilt-the-balance in anyone's particular direction. Indeed, if one were to even credit such trends' influence, it could WELL be argued as a NEGATIVE rather than positive one in its effects on THESE trends...However, "fortunate" or "UNfortunate" as the case may be, I doubt the effects of some perceived "improved economy" are likely to affect the creation or flow-of-talent in highschool football players to college programs and beyond. No time soon , at any rate.
These are MY readings of the same information and tendencies as you, E-; I concede that it is only one among many that are possible, and no doubt many other possible ones are OUT there somewhere, too. In fact, it is that very multitude of factors, possible outcomes and alternate analyses-of-each that I offer ultimately as refutation to your functional, even deterministic view of "how it is all trending". It is, in the end, I believe, a "chaotic system"--too many humans with too many unpredictable, at unknown numbers-of-time-and-opportunities impossible-TO-predict choices and outcomes to even know all of the POSSIBILITIES, let alone scale the likelihood of their various outcomes...As a computer-guy, E-, I know YOU know the implications of and difficulties in arriving at a "usable outcome" in such cases.

 

[Leakfan12]

Escambia94 well the Gators of 1984 and 1985 were great teams but the F--king NCAA and the F--king SEC came down hard on Florida thanks to helping of bitter ex-Gators coaches. Granted NCAA already that it out for Pell just ask Clemson. How come Florida didn't appeal the punishment? I would fight it guns ablazing especially against Woodard and Dickey. The NCAA owes the Gators two SEC titles and two national titles. I check the schedule and the Gators don't have to faced off against Johnny Football next season unless both teams go to the SEC title game which is a possibility.

 

[DRU2012]

Escambia94 well the Gators of 1984 and 1985 were great teams but the F--king NCAA and the F--king SEC came down hard on Florida thanks to helping of bitter ex-Gators coaches. Granted NCAA already that it out for Pell just ask Clemson. How come Florida didn't appeal the punishment? I would fight it guns ablazing especially against Woodard and Dickey. The NCAA owes the Gators two SEC titles and two national titles. I check the schedule and the Gators don't have to faced off against Johnny Football next season unless both teams go to the SEC title game which is a possibility.

People, administration-types and old-school ADs used to just run for cover when the NCAA came around, flexing its muscles--just laid down, gave-in automatically to ANY old sh*t when they "brought down the hammer"--and this all got especially worse in the years after SMU and "The Death Penalty"...We were one of their favorite whipping boys, and the rest of the SEC just ran away from us, even joined in the attack, like wussies around bullies, just glad not to be the ones who they all were after this time (the SEC teams in general were always "under suspicion", as far as the NCAA was concerned--with good reason, I suppose--but only for doing what EVERY LARGE PROGRAM WAS DOING in those days)...NO ONE got it, that the power they (ie. the NCAA Infractions Committee, etc.) had was exactly as much as the teams-in-question GAVE them, until Spurrier came along after-the-FACT of a succession of punishments, in the middle of consequences like "No Conference Championships" and "No Post-Season Play", and said "To HELL with THIS!", essentially deciding to ignore the whole deal and get his more-than-willing team to see it the same way...and soon we the fans, WE all came to see it that way TOO--"To HELL with the NC-double-f*ckin'-A...". When we finished on top of the SEC that year, for the first time EVER, Btw, Spurrier had "SEC Champions" rings made up for his players DESPITE the NCAA "punishment" that forbade our "official" banning. In retrospect, SOS, "The Evil Genius" was showing the way: This was the beginning, it could be argued, the revelation to all that you could BEAT the NCAA simply by ignoring their arrogant pronouncements--and in looking back now, the start of their decline. Oh, it wasn't "official"--and SO WHAT? In a time before Conference Championships (even ours, which would be the first some years later), we said "WE'RE the Champions!", we'd beaten everyone ELSE who had an "official" claim, and we ALL celebrated as if it was just as satisfying and valid...and we BELIEVED it, so much so that when the punishment period was over a couple of years later and we won it "for real", it wasn't a big deal--we even referred to it in "qualified" terms, like "3rd-in-row, but 1st 'official' one..." ("f*ckin' NCAA" either said or implied).
Look at what's happened since: their "power", once wide and unquestioned, has become something of a joke in many ways. They now have to hem-and-haw, drag out their "deliberations", check "how the wind blows", and make sure they have enough support to make whatever barely strong-enough public display they dare to levy stick at ALL...And it's THEIR cross-interests and old-boy network of bias and favoritism that are now under public scrutiny. The NCAA F*cks, lame and corrupt as they are and have BEEN for some time, have in their collective bumbling stupidity proceeded to demonstrate ALL of that and more PUBLICLY ever since, have and continue to marginalize themSELVES, and will almost certainly remain on this course towards their own obsolescence--and good riddance, I say.

 

[Escambia94]

DRU2012: The case I am building here is not that aTm is in the exact socio-economic situation as Florida was 30 years ago. The point is that programs rise and fall for various reasons. Bear Bryant saw that Florida was rising, partially due to the state of Florida socio-economic growth, and part of it due to other factors. You were at UF then. Do you remember the stories of Gator athletes having to go to the gym at local hotels, because the Florida athletic department lacked enough weight machines to keep up with the demand by the athletes? Bear Bryant saw that with better athletes popping up in Florida, all it would take is a good AD and a good coach to wake the sleeping giant. Fast forward 30 years. The state of Texas' economy is recession proof compared to the rest of the nation. The population shift that benefitted Florida 30 years ago is reversing--people are leaving Florida, the economy is crap, football programs are losing funding. Meanwhile, the population in the state of Texas is growing, high school football programs are getting even bigger. That would benefit the University of Texas at Austin AND Texas A&M equally if it were not for one thing--the A&M move to the South East Conference.

Leakfan12: I agree. I do not know why Florida officials do not claim at least one national championship and two conference championships for that timeframe. It is not too late. Speaking of Texas A&M, did you know that A&M quietly added two more national championships when it joined the SEC? Yes. When they added the SEC logo to Kyle Field, they quietly added the 1919 and 1927 seasons. The NCAA does not control what championships a school claims. Believe it or not, not all 12 (or 19) of Alabama's titles are "real" by most standards. Realistically, they should have 6 or 7. Using the same criteria that Alabama used, FSU could claim a national championship in 1996. Using better criteria than that, Florida can easily claim 1984. Using criteria similar to Texas A&M, Florida could claim 1985. They could do this, and the NCAA could not stop them. For some reason, Florida chooses not to do this. They also refuse to chase down the SEC title for 1984, and stake a claim to 1985. I do not know the whole story. Either way, that whole thing was fishy--Dickey and Graves conspiring with the enemy to go turncoat on the Florida football program, then the long delay before the SEC stripping the title. It was all fishy. If I were king, I would retroactively claim 1984, and maybe 1985.

 

[Leakfan12]

Here's the complete list according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS

All these schools on the list could as well.

 

[DRU2012]

Escambia94, Leakfan12, FrozenGator,
(1) I GET the "Can't DO it"-rules problem you are concerned about here--but first, I'm not recommending anything that can't safely skirt those rules, from a practical/real-world POV, and second, I'm sure a modified, adapted and approved-version could be worked out WITHIN those "rules (maybe requiring, among other "accommodations", that this person either only be there during-the-season OR NOT be called a "coach" at all in the first place, whereas THIRD, perhaps this is EXACTLY the grounds upon which new rules in an important area might be forged--Presented properly, the very absurdities of forbidding and/or otherwise impeding the integration and success of the "student" portion of the "student-athlete" concept, whether intentional or inadvertent, might be finally considered and dealt with rather than publicly and hypocritically ignored once again.
(2) Regarding a regional power-shift, I RE-offer my arguments in response to your tighter focus on (in this case, for eg.) A&M, in a general "swing" toward Texas in wealth, population and talent, the result of economic trends. In A&M's case I agree that they have turned out to have gained advantage by their move to the SEC (running COUNTER to the claims, expectations and outright JOKES of the rest of the Big 12 in general and TEXAS members in particular, btw), but one that is 2-way, that GIVES as well as it gets with and from the rest of the SEC, and for reasons that highlight the socio-economic arguments that I made above. That is, for our purposes, Florida will continue to have its choice of and from the same similarly fertile sources (in quality AND quantity) of talent as it has long competed for--and only in the last generation has gained full, even superior access to: Again, like UT having access to any QB but nonetheless having CHOSEN poorly the last few years, for UF it will be the quality of our people's evaluation skills and resulting CHOICES, rather than the objective ebb and flow of the talent available to it (which, as I have argued, practically speaking is and will remain Top-Tier/First Class now, and far into the foreseeable future), that will determine the overall quality of successive recruiting classes, and hence the continued smooth success and improvement of our whole program.
(3) As for your comments to Leakfan12, about NCAA "power" and what other SEC programs "claim" regarding historical success, for eg. the way they "count Championships" and so on, I refer you again to MY response to Lf above (the one that "replies"to Lf and begins referencing YOU, E-) regarding this exact subject, only specifically addressing the "relationship" between US and the NCAA.

 

[Dale J. Rodriguez]

I enjoyed reading the stats Esacmbia. This is good logic.