What if: Florida won titles in 1984 and 1985

[Leakfan12]

I know I did this before and no one reply to it and let I'm doing this again. I really like to know how these other schools get away with this and how much they bribe the NCAA to get away with it.

What if: the NCAA didn't punish the Gators in 1984 and they won the national titles in 1984 and 1985 (well maybe the 1985 title is a bit of a strench could the 1985 Gators beat the 1985 Sooners?) However, they were the best team in 1984 and face a tougher schedule than BYU and Washington (2nd ranked). Also I believe the war of the big three Florida school would have started sooner like it did in 1990 or 1991. I think 1986 season would have a lost one with the injury to Kerwin Bell but a 8 or 9 win season would have been possible. 1987 and 1988 would have been great with Emmitt running the ball. Possibly 1989 but with NCAA sanctions Gators would have got hammered like they did that year and Pell gets the boot after 10 plus years in control. Hall takes over the remind of the 1989 season. They hired Spurrier and the rest is history. That's my opinion.

 

[Escambia94]

All it takes is one or two turns of events to change history. Florida was on the rise in that time period. I would argue that the premier rivalry in that period and into the 1990s would have been Florida-Miami, not Florida-Florida State if Florida were not stripped of the 1984 title and not given consideration for 1985. The decline of Florida in the late 1980s due to NCAA sanctions helped fuel the rise of FSU, and to a lesser degree, Alabama. Miami was already gaining strength on its own before the rise of Florida. I could see Emmitt gaining a Heisman out of this as well--he would have more talent around him (especially on the offensive line) and the team would have been in the national highlight needed for Heisman consideration and higher poll rankings. This would also mean that Kerwin Bell might not have earned a start, possibly not even a scholarship. Kerwin got his chance when a whole bunch of other QBs left due to impending sanctions. Kerwin was listed at #2 only a week before opening day before the #1 was injured in practice! Both of those guys were relieved to see two or three QBs leave the team. Note: I researched those guys and will try to find their names. None of them turned out to be very good. Without Charley Pell and Galen Hall, we may not have seen Steve Spurrier return to Florida, at least not in 1990. Under Pell and Hall, I think Florida would have earned a championship with Emmitt Smith, and that Emmitt would have earned a Heisman. For some reason, coaches tend to stay at Florida for a decade, so Galen Hall would have taken over in 1990, or Steve Spurrier could have still found his way back to Florida. I would have to think about that a bit.

 

[Leakfan12]

Not so fast, There has been stories about guys who were 8th, 9th, 12th on the depth chart and started for the program sanctions or no sanctions. I believe that Bell still would have been the QB plus there's been QBs that leave without the threat of sanctions. As for Hall over Spurrier in 1990, I doubt it. After the sanctions that got Hall fired, did the Gators clean house? If they did that with Hall and company, then same would have happened with Pell and company don't you think. Besides Hall vs Spurrier, who would you hired?

 

[DRU2012]

Escambia94, Leakfan12
Over the course of that decade (the '80s) there were SO many entangled factors, every one of them it seemed either on the one extreme (ie. of exciting promise) or the other (eliminated through injury, leaving due to eventual scandal, or embroiled in scandal themselves), that in retrospect it is difficult to say if or how just one or two events in what was a succession of complex cause-and-effects could have altered the forces at work--or how they might have impacted our program...Looking back now, what really stands out, indeed takes on an almost mythic nature in Gator-lore, is how things fell just right for the "Florida Golden Boy", Steve Spurrier, to come in, at just the right moment in his own career and a key (and desperate) turning point in the team's history, take over as Head Coach, pull the pieces of what was a fractured but still well known and promising program with enormous potential together, get us through the impending punishment period, and come out of it already rebuilt, strong and ready to challenge WHOMEVER was then at the top of the College Football World. I agree that this was probably more naturally Miami at that point, but Spurrier was shrewd enough to recognize that doing whatever he could to bring FSU along on the public stage, help to make them part of that "competitive triumvirate" (Florida's traditional cross-state rivals, they were almost there already anyway, they had their own annual rivalries with both in-state teams--and Bobby was a colorful southern character, a "good ol' boy" natural counterpoint to Spurrier's "abrasive smartass"); it helped that they and the Canes annually played a then much-watched cut-throat-game weeks before the Gator/'Nole clash at Thanksgiving. The "Florida Championship" became, for a time, a kind of defacto "semi-final for the mythical National Championship".

 

[Escambia94]

Not so fast, There has been stories about guys who were 8th, 9th, 12th on the depth chart and started for the program sanctions or no sanctions. I believe that Bell still would have been the QB plus there's been QBs that leave without the threat of sanctions. As for Hall over Spurrier in 1990, I doubt it. After the sanctions that got Hall fired, did the Gators clean house? If they did that with Hall and company, then same would have happened with Pell and company don't you think. Besides Hall vs Spurrier, who would you hired?

Keep in mind that after the early 1980s successes, more prominent QBs were recruited to Florida. Wayne Peace, Roger Sibbald, and Mark Massey would probably have been 3 or 4 star QBs by today's standards. Kerwin Bell and Dale Dorminey would be 2 or 3 star QBs. Dorminey waited his turn behind those three AND the incoming 4 and 5 star QBs who eventually transferred out. Dorminey would never have been named #1 in 1984 if those three had not graduated AND the incoming guys transferred out (I have their names somewhere...still looking). Dorminey is the key, because if Dorminey were not injured the week before opening day, Bell would not have seen the field until Dorminey were injured or pulled due to performance.

Spurrier got his shot because Charley Pell blew his shot. Historically, Gator coaches have stayed a decade. If Pell did not get in trouble and the Gators got to keep their 1984 title, he may have stayed until 1989. From there, following the same logic, Galen Hall would likely have stayed with the team and would have been the frontrunner to take over, if Pell did not choose to do another decade. Pell's mentor was Bear Bryant, so Pell may have elected to continue his success beyond 1989. Another variable in this is Mike Shanahan. Imagine if he had stayed a college offensive coordinator beyond 1980-1983. Imagine a decade with Pell as head coach, Shanahan as offensive coordinator, and Hall as defensive coordinator! Under those circumstances, Steve Spurrier may not have been offered a position at Florida until much later. Spurrier just happened to be fresh off his USFL and Duke stints in 1989, but under the hypothetical conditions set above he would have probably stayed at Duke.

 

[Leakfan12]

Escambia94
They hired Doug Dickey from UT in 1970 instead a Graves assistant and they hired Pell from Clemson in 1979 and telling me They wouldn't hire Spurrier from Duke? OK you have a point with Shanahan but I think even if he was the OC past 1983 season, I doubt he would have waiting six more years. Plus I believe they would have clean house in the 1989 season meaning bye, bye Shanahan.

 

[Escambia94]

Escambia94
They hired Doug Dickey from UT in 1970 instead a Graves assistant and they hired Pell from Clemson in 1979 and telling me They wouldn't hire Spurrier from Duke? OK you have a point with Shanahan but I think even if he was the OC past 1983 season, I doubt he would have waiting six more years. Plus I believe they would have clean house in the 1989 season meaning bye, bye Shanahan.

I guess the theoretical, alternate history depends on your assumptions. I can see your scenario playing out, assuming Shanahan elected to go to the NFL. My assumptions are that Pell would have led the team to greatness in the 1980s and would not need to leave in 1989 or 1990, especially if he were building up a resume matching his mentor, Bear Bryant. Now, if we assume that the reason coaches tend to leave around the 10-year point is that is how long it takes before they lose "the edge", then I can see Spurrier beating out Hall as head coach. Maybe Hall would even stay on as defensive coordinator. Imagine the 1990s being even better with Spurrier leading the offense and Hall leading the defense.

 

[Leakfan12]

Remember I'm counting the 1989 NCAA punishment so bye bye Pell. Also Hall was the OC not the DC.

 

[Escambia94]

Remember I'm counting the 1989 NCAA punishment so bye bye Pell. Also Hall was the OC not the DC.

I am assuming that if we get to keep the 1984 and possibly 1985 championships, then the coaches in question were not guilty of major infractions or that their infractions were not bad enough to warrant sanctions. It also follows in my assumptions that if there are no 1984 sanctions that there are no 1989 sanctions. The 1989 sanctions would not have been as bad if there were no recent transgressions, such as the 1984 issues.

Given my assumptions, you can see why I went a different direction. When I look at your assumptions, I have to agree.

I stand corrected on Hall as DC. You are right--he was an OC. My mistake.

 

[Escambia94]

In 1980, the Gators had four high profile QBs arrive on campus at the same time: Wayne Peace (1980-1983), Dale Dorminey (1980-1984), Roger Sibbald (1980-1984), and Mark Massey (1980), with Bob Hewko (1980-1982) in the mix as well. Mark Massey transferred to Tulane in 1981. In this timeframe, somehow other schools got the impression the Florida was cheating. I'm not sure if Massey left because there was talk of something going on or if he just transferred because he dropped from #2 to #3 on the depth chart. This sets the stage for what happens in 1984. There were a lot of QBs on the spring and summer roster fighting for the top spot in 1984.

In 1983 when the NCAA investigation started, the start-able QBs were Wayne Peace, Dale Dorminey, and maybe Roger Sibbald (Sibbald played punter when he was not QB).

In 1984, immediately before players were alerted of potential NCAA sanctions, the Gators had Dale Dorminey, Rodney Brewer, Roger Sibbald, and Kerwin Bell, along with some new QBs that arrived in 1983 and 1984. Some of them left, which set the stage for the depth chart to be Dale Dorminey, Kerwin Bell, then Rodney Brewer. Dale was injured only four days before opening day, which moved Kerwin to #1 and Rodney to #2. Kerwin started the spring or summer sessions being listed around #7 or #8 on the depth chart. I cannot recall when the QBs started leaving, but I have a feeling it was in the spring of 1984. The Gators did not lose a lot of defensive players, because they were most older players that would not benefit from transferring out. They would get drafted into the NFL regardless. The running backs were older, so they also elected to stay. The biggest impact of impending sanctions on the 1984 seasn was on the QB situation. From 1986-1989, the sanctions affected the entire offense--the Gators' only marquee player on offense was Emmitt Smith. Not to take away from Kerwin Bell, but he did not even have a scholarship going into the 1984 season. He was fortunate that six QBs ahead of him left the program. Six. One was injured only four days before opening day against Miami.
That being said, if NCAA did not punish Florida starting in with preliminary implications of guilt in 1983, Kerwin Bell would never have a shot at the starting position--there would not even be any scholarships to offer.
Also, the 1989 punishment would have been less. The NCAA could have hit Florida harder for loss of control due to them already punishing Florida only five years earlier. Even if we assume Florida was not guilty in 1984, the assumption here is that they would be investigated and no sanctions given. The NCAA would have stated that they had to do two investigations in one decade and call that loss of control.

 

[Leakfan12]

You have a point though Tom Brady was 9th on the Michigan depth chart when he entered, Steve Young was 12th on the BYU depth chart and last I checked those programs weren't on any type of trouble. Kerwin Bell proved to he belonged. It's possible that QBs left because of the impending judgment and also it's possible that QBs left because they didn't want to be backups themselves and didn't want to wait, or coach wanted some of them to switch positions (which does happen) and they left or swap positions, or injuries like Dorminey, or some might have had trouble with school work or Kerwin Bell simply outperformed them. Plus you have said that Spurrier recruited and signed some of the top QBs in the country and none of them did jacks--t for the Gators. What do you said about Chris Doering? He also had to buried on the depth chart and worked his way of being a favorite target of Danny.

 

[Escambia94]

You have a point though Tom Brady was 9th on the Michigan depth chart when he entered, Steve Young was 12th on the BYU depth chart and last I checked those programs weren't on any type of trouble. Kerwin Bell proved to he belonged. It's possible that QBs left because of the impending judgment and also it's possible that QBs left because they didn't want to be backups themselves and didn't want to wait, or coach wanted some of them to switch positions (which does happen) and they left or swap positions, or injuries like Dorminey, or some might have had trouble with school work or Kerwin Bell simply outperformed them. Plus you have said that Spurrier recruited and signed some of the top QBs in the country and none of them did jacks--t for the Gators. What do you said about Chris Doering? He also had to buried on the depth chart and worked his way of being a favorite target of Danny.

Good points, but receivers are more likely to work up the depth chart than QBs because receivers can be swapped out based on situation. Some are blocking receivers, which Doering was not. Doering was just crafty in getting open or beating faster cornerbacks. That is a skill one cannot capture well in practice, but with Spurrier being the HC and the OC, he was able to see potential in Doering.

Galen Hall was the OC only for the first three games of 1984, and then HC/OC from there on out. He was able to see the intangibles in Kerwin Bell to promote him above, say, Rodney Brewer. He did not see enough to put Kerwin over Dale Dorminey, and Dale had fallen to 3rd or 4th on the depth chart before 1984.

Tom Brady stated that he became depressed in college and contemplated a transfer. History shows that he was 7th on the depth chart, but in reality he was 2nd or 3rd behind Brian Griese until he graduated, then looking over his shoulder at Drew Henson with the new head coach under pressure from their equivalent of Bull Gators pushing for Drew. Brady's new coach, Lloyd Carr, saved Tom Brady by fighting off their "Bull Gators" from forcing Drew Henson to ruin Brady's shot.

Steve Young was going to get a shot at whatever position he wanted. He was the great grandson of his alma mater's namesake, Brigham Young. Steve was an option QB in high school with a completion percentage under 50%, but he had the clout to convince the coaches to let him get extra work in to improve and get the benefit of the doubt. Not to take away from his skill. Steve Young is better than my favorite childhood QB, Joe Montana, because Steve has the determination to learn and improve despite not being in the best situation to get that shot. His name helped him get that benefit of the doubt in college, but his skill made it worth the investment.

 

[Leakfan12]

Let's face it I think college football is not really survival of the fittest but more like survival of who screws up less or who can stay the longest. Downside of recruiting is a overload of the position like QB, a player or two transfer also someone will switch positions. When the Gators got Tebow, they lost Javen Snead as a recruit who went to Texas (wish Brantley did the same one year later) and Josh Portis who was already on roster as Leak's backup in 2005 didn't want to challenge Tebow and he left for Maryland. Snead had some success at Ole Miss however after struggling in 2009, he had the bright idea declared early and got undrafted and couldn't get in the Arena League. Portis is the third string practice squad QB for Seattle despite having the same issues as Cam Newton (cheating and stealing though after he left Florida), Also undrafted.

 

[DRU2012]

(OK on the POLITICS of Steve Young's college career--and he DID turn out to be able to vastly improve his passing skills, eventually bringing them nearer to his then natural-gifts as a scrambler, but even though I have NEVER been a Notre Dame fan, I recognized Joe Montana's superior gifts as a leader, that wholly unique "drive-to-win" and the ability to somehow make it happen, from the first time he stepped on a football field before a national audience with the game in the balance--Never saw anything like it until I saw Tim Tebow, who did it in his own way--and witnessed Montana continue, even calmly improve in these abilities throughout his college and pro careers, and therefore will personally always put Montana ahead in the inevitable comparisons of he and Young--and indeed on most ANY list of "all time great QBs".)
As for the quarterback position and the young men who have aspired to and/or flourished IN the role at University of Florida over the past 25-to-30 years, any historical perspective would have to take into account the ongoing interplay of coach, system, and candidate-for-the job: all three have inevitably been inter-connected, have influenced each other and been inextricably bound with the development of the others--and together, in most cases (with the possible exception of the seasons Emmit was here), been responsible for the particular history of success or failure of that season or era's entire offense.