OK I can more understand why Meyer but seriously this is the guy who lead the Gators to two titles (a game away a third). I said give him another season with a Real OC before deciding if he should go or not. Unless if that's the only way to get rid of Addazio. Brantley, man what's up with Gator QBs wearing the number 12 after Kerwin Bell (Doug Johnson and Chris Leak also had their struggles)? I think he got screwed because whoever decision to keep offense (Meyer or Addazio) the way it was is an idiot especially since they recruited him and they know a pocket passer from day one.
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Why are people calling for the heads of Brantley and Meyer?
- Thread starter Leakfan12
- Start date
JB had three years to watch Tebow, plus a year or so to watch Newton and think to himself, "Hmmm. I should consider running. I don't think I fit this offense--it looks nothing like the offense I used in high school." OR, he could take control of his destiny in 2010 after getting sacked, knocked around, and demolished by walking up to his offensive line and saying, "Pouncey! Really? Snap the MF'ing ball! You! Block that guy!" There is no emotion, no fire, no intensity, no leadership. I am not saying that he needs to be rah-rah-sis-boom-ba like Tebow, but one thing that all the other #12s did, including the rather reserved Chris Leak, was make on-field adjustments and lead the team. An on-field adjustment does not mean calling one's own plays per se, even though that would be funny and exciting to see, but it does mean communicating with your offense and talking to the OC to give feedback such as, "Umm. Coach? That last play didn't work because I only got 2 seconds of pass protection. Got any ideas? I was thinking of rolling left or maybe having Nixon not pull so far."
I've played football before, and I know that one has to stick within the confines of the coach's offense. However, a leader, a field general takes command of the offense and helps the coaches with on-field feedback of the plays called. We like to compare JB to Chris Leak. Those two are very similar--both quiet and reserved. I can recall seeing Leak give feedback to Dan Mullen. I suppose he could have been telling a joke or complaining, but from my armchair QB couch it looked like he was saying something that led to an adjustment in the game. The coaches are not perfect. Before last week, Urban Meyer did not seem to wear the headset a lot. Even then, there is only so much you can see from the booth to relay to Urban Meyer. The best feedback comes from an on-field leader of the offense. That is where JB fails. It's not where Burton succeeds, but he does not make any of the reads that JB does and there is less feedback to give.
I know this answer is getting long-winded, but I have debated this a lot at work. In a passing situation the o-line needs to hold for about 4-5 maybe up to 7 seconds on a deep route before the QB makes his three or four reads and throws the ball. In a zone read, the QB really only needs 2-4 seconds depending on how strong the line is before throwing the ball into a preset pattern or running the option. If the line does not hold, the QB's reads will become simple dives with no reads or options to the edges. Trey Burton has made a couple reads to throw, or at least faked it, and you can see that by the time he pulls up to throw and then pulls down to run that the line has already collapsed at the edges. The only place to throw or run by that point is to move up the pocket by the line. JB can't throw from that spot, except against a moderate pass rush--the pocket is not a standard pocket. Trey Burton can't throw from there because he does not have the release--he throws best back further in the pocket.
After three years of watching the offense, I would hope JB can say the same things to his coach based on his experiences which are a lot more accurate and more relevant than my armchair quarterback analysis from my couch.
I've played football before, and I know that one has to stick within the confines of the coach's offense. However, a leader, a field general takes command of the offense and helps the coaches with on-field feedback of the plays called. We like to compare JB to Chris Leak. Those two are very similar--both quiet and reserved. I can recall seeing Leak give feedback to Dan Mullen. I suppose he could have been telling a joke or complaining, but from my armchair QB couch it looked like he was saying something that led to an adjustment in the game. The coaches are not perfect. Before last week, Urban Meyer did not seem to wear the headset a lot. Even then, there is only so much you can see from the booth to relay to Urban Meyer. The best feedback comes from an on-field leader of the offense. That is where JB fails. It's not where Burton succeeds, but he does not make any of the reads that JB does and there is less feedback to give.
I know this answer is getting long-winded, but I have debated this a lot at work. In a passing situation the o-line needs to hold for about 4-5 maybe up to 7 seconds on a deep route before the QB makes his three or four reads and throws the ball. In a zone read, the QB really only needs 2-4 seconds depending on how strong the line is before throwing the ball into a preset pattern or running the option. If the line does not hold, the QB's reads will become simple dives with no reads or options to the edges. Trey Burton has made a couple reads to throw, or at least faked it, and you can see that by the time he pulls up to throw and then pulls down to run that the line has already collapsed at the edges. The only place to throw or run by that point is to move up the pocket by the line. JB can't throw from that spot, except against a moderate pass rush--the pocket is not a standard pocket. Trey Burton can't throw from there because he does not have the release--he throws best back further in the pocket.
After three years of watching the offense, I would hope JB can say the same things to his coach based on his experiences which are a lot more accurate and more relevant than my armchair quarterback analysis from my couch.
The Zooker
VIP Member
People are just shocked that Meyer can go from having two quick national titles to fielding a team that ranks in the 90's in offense and even has some real shocking stats like being 119th in first down yardage. This on top of the fact that everyone on the team is somebody that he targeted as a recruit. The list of baffling things just keeps piling up. Brantley running the option? Taking the fastest team in America and turning it into a smash mouth offense? These are things that fans and journalists and announcers across the country have been seriously surprised by. It's not often you see a coach go from being listed as the best in the nation to becoming a coach that allows a team of five stars to come out and look completely unprepared to play. Right now there are literally dozens of coaches out there who are getting better results from worse athletes on their squads. Going from the top to the bottom so quickly is something that has completely shocked the Gator nation.
InkedAdrenaline
VIP Member
people who are doggin' meyer are idoits, he is a GREAT coach....
Brantley on the other hand belongs in Cincy or TCU, he doesnt cut it as a Gator....just my 2cents CHMOP CHOMP....I cant wait for BURTON TIME!
Brantley on the other hand belongs in Cincy or TCU, he doesnt cut it as a Gator....just my 2cents CHMOP CHOMP....I cant wait for BURTON TIME!
I would clarify that Brantley is a great Gator, but does not fit the current Gator offense. He would fit any other spread offense other than this one. Come to think of it, if he had gone to Texas as he originally planned he would be the starter, would have done better against Alabama last year than Gilbert. There is no denying he has talent, but I will pick on his decisiveness and leadership.
There will probably be no Burton time, as Zooker pointed out. We may see more Burton this year, but not as the starter. Next year, I expect to see Burton moved to TE, RB, WR, SL, or maybe in a new role as the BA position (as in Bad @$$ or Burton-Athlete...kind of like the Harvin position). My guess is that it will be Brantley and Driskel next year.
The Zooker
VIP Member
Yep. It will technically never be "Burton Time" as a starter. He will be used in the same function as he is now for his entire collegiate career. Johnny is the starter next season. And Jeff Driskel is the heir apparent in 2012. Jeff will be the starter and Burton will be used as a change of pace and to take some hits off Jeff. Things can change given the right circumstances. But this is the current plan in place by the coaching staff.
GainesvillebornNraised
VIP Member
one thing ive noticed over the weeks i gotta give brantley props for his ability to make throws when we need em he's made alot of conversions on like 3rd & 15 that we really had no buisiness making
Once again, the big questions are posed AND answered all on the same page.
Leakfan12 asks, "Why are people calling for the heads of Brantley and Meyer?", and gets a prompt, clear and complete response:
Escambia94 lays out the whole problem of how JB (and us, the fans, also, BTW) was led to believe the offense would be adapted, how it in fact was NOT, what he could (and couldn't) do about it, what he did (and didn't) do about it, and where that leaves him (and US).
Zooker completes the sad picture by as much as promising that NOTHING will fundamentally change NEXT year --which in turn brings us to MY answer to InkedAdrenaline's point that "Meyer is a Great Coach" (for the moment, we'll leave aside the claim that anyone who says otherwise is "an idiot"):
Urban Meyer has BEEN a great coach, has been OUR "Great Coach", but he has NOT been that good a coach this year. I'm sorry. No room or need to mount the argument here, but it is so.
Is it "in him" to be that "Great Coach" again? I hope so; we're all counting on it (despite our idle musings to the contrary, I don't think he's going anywhere else, not this year anyway...).
As the saying goes, Urban Meyer has forgotten more about football than you or I will ever know.
Trouble is, he seems to have forgotten it ALL AT ONCE.
Leakfan12 asks, "Why are people calling for the heads of Brantley and Meyer?", and gets a prompt, clear and complete response:
Escambia94 lays out the whole problem of how JB (and us, the fans, also, BTW) was led to believe the offense would be adapted, how it in fact was NOT, what he could (and couldn't) do about it, what he did (and didn't) do about it, and where that leaves him (and US).
Zooker completes the sad picture by as much as promising that NOTHING will fundamentally change NEXT year --which in turn brings us to MY answer to InkedAdrenaline's point that "Meyer is a Great Coach" (for the moment, we'll leave aside the claim that anyone who says otherwise is "an idiot"):
Urban Meyer has BEEN a great coach, has been OUR "Great Coach", but he has NOT been that good a coach this year. I'm sorry. No room or need to mount the argument here, but it is so.
Is it "in him" to be that "Great Coach" again? I hope so; we're all counting on it (despite our idle musings to the contrary, I don't think he's going anywhere else, not this year anyway...).
As the saying goes, Urban Meyer has forgotten more about football than you or I will ever know.
Trouble is, he seems to have forgotten it ALL AT ONCE.
I think you need to take a look at what we are dealing with this year as a whole.
Everyone is wondering why are defense is not like last year....simple....new coach.....new system.....new players..... You do not pick up a new system in one summer....or half summer in this case.
Offense - Yes, I think we need a new OC. However, we are working with guys that obviously are not getting it and are still growing as players. Why???? because of the players that are all playing in the NFL now. Are we seeing improvement? Yes! Are we seeing other players starting to get involved? Yes!
Special Teams - This was always Meyers baby. He has turned this over to a NEW COACH - again, learning curve with a new coach. New players new way of doing things.
Can someone tell me how many new coaches the Gator have had in the past two years....including this one?
How many players have departed this team over the past two years that were fulltime players?
Of the games the Gators lost, what was the point spread?
Are we having a down year? Yes!
I remember a bunch of people on this board that said they expect the Gators to end up with 3-5 losses this year. Well, we are at 3 on a rebuilding year. BIG DEAL! Are we seeing improvements with these young players? Are we seeing changes with our coaches?
The Gator Football world is not ending, it is just rebuilding. Why don't we try to look at the positives of what is going on with the program instead of tearing it down on every topic.
How about:
What players are starting to show improvement?
What new players coming in will have the greatest impact next year? Why? What will they bring to the team?
If...If coach Meyer decides that a new OC should be put in place next year who should it be and why?
Just some examples of how we could have discussion on the positive side.
Sorry for the rant but I just can stand reading all the complaining, bitching, and negativity.
I come to this site as it had all the latest articles on the Gators and what was going on with recruiting and such. Now its all about how the world is falling.
I guess I can just stop coming to this site.
Everyone is wondering why are defense is not like last year....simple....new coach.....new system.....new players..... You do not pick up a new system in one summer....or half summer in this case.
Offense - Yes, I think we need a new OC. However, we are working with guys that obviously are not getting it and are still growing as players. Why???? because of the players that are all playing in the NFL now. Are we seeing improvement? Yes! Are we seeing other players starting to get involved? Yes!
Special Teams - This was always Meyers baby. He has turned this over to a NEW COACH - again, learning curve with a new coach. New players new way of doing things.
Can someone tell me how many new coaches the Gator have had in the past two years....including this one?
How many players have departed this team over the past two years that were fulltime players?
Of the games the Gators lost, what was the point spread?
Are we having a down year? Yes!
I remember a bunch of people on this board that said they expect the Gators to end up with 3-5 losses this year. Well, we are at 3 on a rebuilding year. BIG DEAL! Are we seeing improvements with these young players? Are we seeing changes with our coaches?
The Gator Football world is not ending, it is just rebuilding. Why don't we try to look at the positives of what is going on with the program instead of tearing it down on every topic.
How about:
What players are starting to show improvement?
What new players coming in will have the greatest impact next year? Why? What will they bring to the team?
If...If coach Meyer decides that a new OC should be put in place next year who should it be and why?
Just some examples of how we could have discussion on the positive side.
Sorry for the rant but I just can stand reading all the complaining, bitching, and negativity.
I come to this site as it had all the latest articles on the Gators and what was going on with recruiting and such. Now its all about how the world is falling.
I guess I can just stop coming to this site.
@ Jack&Dew:
It is NOT the losses, it is the nature of those losses, the product on the field, the direction the program is headed in. I was one of those folks you mention who predicted "in the 3-loss range" coming in--and if I saw out there what you CLAIM to see, a team of young and inexperienced newcomers learning and improving as they go, as individuals AND as a TEAM, well, it wouldn't only be MY part in these discussions that would be very different.
Look at what people here are actually saying: these are not just random shots, general whining and bellyaching. Specific, repeating patterns are addressed, things that bode ill not just for the remainder of the season (and BTW, have already turned out to continue haunting us since they were first raised early on) but for next year as well. We are NOT getting ready for next year. All signs point to "more of the same"--THAT'S what worries many of us the most.
You're criticizing passionate, knowledgeable fans for daring to voice their dissatisfaction with what they see right in front of them; it doesn't help that we're treated like fools and idiots, or worse, outright lied to, by the Head Coach himself in post-game comments. All you offer in return are questions we have long since posed--and gotten very few answers from as far as what the staff has done OR said.
Again, all we can go by is what we see, hear and surmise. It doesn't look good. We've been trying to answer the very questions you pose, among many others. Indeed, one of the big problems is that "the new guys" aren't getting game experience. Actually, that's TWO problems: not only is there no way to judge their talent or progress at this level, such progress is limited WITHOUT game experience.
Who is or isn't being red-shirted? Who SHOULD or shouldn't be? Exactly when do we begin to see the on-field benefits of that out-of-this-world recruiting haul on defense? What are we going to do at QB: adapt the offense to JB (as originally promised), or continue "the other way"--ie. use this "3-headed monster" as a kind of "holding place" for a "transition year" to Driskoll? These are just some of the questions that are otherwise lost in the shroud of secrecy that has grown around this team.
So we ask. And discuss. And prod. And analyze. And yes, rant--but we aim it all at the source of our perceived problem: the coach(es). NOT the fans. C'mon. I'm sorry if you feel you've been "driven away" by "negativity", but we see confusion and the signs of stubborn self-delusion in our beloved program, and I guess this isn't going to be a site where we just say, "Whatever Urban and the rest of the coaches do and say, we support them...you're either with us or against us!"
It is NOT the losses, it is the nature of those losses, the product on the field, the direction the program is headed in. I was one of those folks you mention who predicted "in the 3-loss range" coming in--and if I saw out there what you CLAIM to see, a team of young and inexperienced newcomers learning and improving as they go, as individuals AND as a TEAM, well, it wouldn't only be MY part in these discussions that would be very different.
Look at what people here are actually saying: these are not just random shots, general whining and bellyaching. Specific, repeating patterns are addressed, things that bode ill not just for the remainder of the season (and BTW, have already turned out to continue haunting us since they were first raised early on) but for next year as well. We are NOT getting ready for next year. All signs point to "more of the same"--THAT'S what worries many of us the most.
You're criticizing passionate, knowledgeable fans for daring to voice their dissatisfaction with what they see right in front of them; it doesn't help that we're treated like fools and idiots, or worse, outright lied to, by the Head Coach himself in post-game comments. All you offer in return are questions we have long since posed--and gotten very few answers from as far as what the staff has done OR said.
Again, all we can go by is what we see, hear and surmise. It doesn't look good. We've been trying to answer the very questions you pose, among many others. Indeed, one of the big problems is that "the new guys" aren't getting game experience. Actually, that's TWO problems: not only is there no way to judge their talent or progress at this level, such progress is limited WITHOUT game experience.
Who is or isn't being red-shirted? Who SHOULD or shouldn't be? Exactly when do we begin to see the on-field benefits of that out-of-this-world recruiting haul on defense? What are we going to do at QB: adapt the offense to JB (as originally promised), or continue "the other way"--ie. use this "3-headed monster" as a kind of "holding place" for a "transition year" to Driskoll? These are just some of the questions that are otherwise lost in the shroud of secrecy that has grown around this team.
So we ask. And discuss. And prod. And analyze. And yes, rant--but we aim it all at the source of our perceived problem: the coach(es). NOT the fans. C'mon. I'm sorry if you feel you've been "driven away" by "negativity", but we see confusion and the signs of stubborn self-delusion in our beloved program, and I guess this isn't going to be a site where we just say, "Whatever Urban and the rest of the coaches do and say, we support them...you're either with us or against us!"
" it doesn't help that we're treated like fools and idiots, or worse, outright lied to, by the Head Coach himself in post-game comments."
So you would prefer that the coached come out and say:
Our offense sucks as our players are not capable of understanding the plays.....our defense sucks as we have a new DC and our new players are no where near the caliber of the players that left....our special teams are not going to as good as previous years since I am letting someone else have a shot at coaching....to all gator fans, expect that we will lose a number of games this year since we are in rebuilding mold after losing key players; not just key players but players that will go down as some of the best in college football....I am not concerned about the mental blow this will cause the players on this team as I am more concerned about making sure that all you Gator fans know exactly what is going on.... I am also not concerned about telling all the teams that we will be playing that we have to use a scaled down playbook as out players cannot grasp the entire playbook, so again you the fan are more important.....
Come on!!!!
If the people on this board are "passionate, knowledgeable fans" then it really should not be that difficult to understand that a coach is not going to come out and blast the players, coaches, plays, etc.... Would you air your dirty laundry?
So you would prefer that the coached come out and say:
Our offense sucks as our players are not capable of understanding the plays.....our defense sucks as we have a new DC and our new players are no where near the caliber of the players that left....our special teams are not going to as good as previous years since I am letting someone else have a shot at coaching....to all gator fans, expect that we will lose a number of games this year since we are in rebuilding mold after losing key players; not just key players but players that will go down as some of the best in college football....I am not concerned about the mental blow this will cause the players on this team as I am more concerned about making sure that all you Gator fans know exactly what is going on.... I am also not concerned about telling all the teams that we will be playing that we have to use a scaled down playbook as out players cannot grasp the entire playbook, so again you the fan are more important.....
Come on!!!!
If the people on this board are "passionate, knowledgeable fans" then it really should not be that difficult to understand that a coach is not going to come out and blast the players, coaches, plays, etc.... Would you air your dirty laundry?
Um, there ARE other alternatives to the one you present above. If that is the level of this discussion, then I will just bow to your towering intellect and pass.
The Zooker
VIP Member
J&D, nobody wants to see you run off. We understand your feelings and hopefully can understand the feelings of others. I am extremely disappointed with how Meyer has run the first half of the season. I am also extremely optimistic that he can get it fixed. But I will say that I think it is the responsibility of the fan base to raise a stink when something smells. We have to learn lessons from other programs and not get complacent. The world of college football is extremely dynamic. If you aren't on the cutting edge of improvement then you are watching your program get passed by the innovators. It happened to Bobby Bowden, it happened to Jim Tressell, the list goes on. Lots of folks, like many on this forum, are just uneasy about seeing our remarkable rise to the top match a remarkable fall back to mediocre oblivion. At the end of the day we still want was is best for the program and will always be Gators. That should be enough to keep us together on a forum.
Well said.
InkedAdrenaline
VIP Member
the bottom line for me is I'm just not a Brantley fan at all. I hope he gets better and grows as a player, but as of now I dont like a qb who will sacrifice a 1st down cuz hes afraid of getn hit(i know he has to b smart cuz hes not the biggest guy ever, but he should do whatever for a 1st down this year) and he is just not 'clutch'....when he starts putn passes 3ft lower, then I will start to believe in him.
The Zooker
VIP Member
Hey, we won a national title with Leak. Brantley may slide a little short of the first down but at least he waits a little longer than ten yards before contact with the nearest defender.
On the one hand, I don't think we can blame Brantley for any one area of disappointment with this offense. For the most part, he hasn't done anything particularly well, either. In short, he leads neither with his personality NOR his level of play. When given the right situation, I see signs of that "great arm" and "pure pocket passer" we heard so much about, and in the end I don't CARE which rationalization applies--the one that says he hasn't been given a chance or the one that says he hasn't risen to the occasion. After more than half the season, I think he should be moved aside; however, the coach(es) think(s) otherwise, it seems. That being the case, get him a set of plays that take advantage of his throwing skills if they work and leave some optional outlets if they don't, and get the other two QBs in there as much as possible, in all the ways you can--like they started doing early in the Georgia game (and sporadically thereafter). Along with the "hurry up" and involving our playmakers as they get healthy again, things could get on track. This could still be a dynamic offense the rest of the way.
Urban Meyer HAS been an offensive visionary, after all, and he DOES have a couple of creative young coaches to work with, no doubt about it. Leave it in the hands of "The Divemaster", though, and none of that will matter.
Urban Meyer HAS been an offensive visionary, after all, and he DOES have a couple of creative young coaches to work with, no doubt about it. Leave it in the hands of "The Divemaster", though, and none of that will matter.
InkedAdrenaline
VIP Member
u have a point haha....and it took me awhile to become a Leak fan as well LOL...honestly addazio sets Brantley up for failure, but as well I would like to see Brantley grow a pair.
InkedAdrenaline
VIP Member
also there was one common denominator for our last 2 titles...obviously Tebow( a run threat QB)..hopefully if we dont get that back soon they will remodel our O to something else that works...but the solution to making the option work isnt puttin Burton in everytime, cuz the other team realizes by now that when Burton comes in its a run play and Brantley is a pass play...
That's exactly my point re how to use what we have now at QB (with an eye towards what we're GOING TO HAVE later, BTW).
I went into some detail on this last night in another one of these "threads". Your point above is well taken, and it was this idea and what could be done about it (mostly with making Burton more of a threat to pass, at least for now) that we discussed.
