In defense of Urban Meyer

[Escambia94]

Leakfan12
Going back to Urban Meyer... A lot of fans hated that Urban Meyer completely changed the offense so much that it had to be a gimmick that would never work. In 1970 Doug Dickey trashed the old offense leftover from the Ray Graves days of 1960-1969 and installed a wishbone offense. Yes, Dickey did give us two teams that were ranked in the top 20 (1973 #19, 1974 #12/#15), but his record at Florida was 58-43-2, and his SEC record was 28-28-1. In other words, Dickey was average, especially compared to his record at Tennessee earlier. To me, the highlight of the Dickey years was his hiring former Heisman QB, Steve Spurrier, as an assistant on his staff. Spurrier learned a little about poaching talent from other states and bringing them to Florida, having stolen a prized QB named Bobby Hewko from the University of Pittsburgh. If Dickey would not have been fired (which forced Spurrier to leave), who knows what Spurrier could have done with Hewko? Hewko stepped in for a struggling Wayne Peace and upset the #5 Seminoles. This is a team that was 4-7! Under a new head coach and QB coach, John Brantley III gets a lot of snaps at QB and the Gators go 0-10-1 in Pell's first year. Lesson: sometimes uncontrollable circumstances such as coaching changes and loss of assistants affects history. Urban Meyer was lucky that he and Dan Mullen were able to re-mold Chris Leak from Ron Zook's coaching staff, and that a top-ranked QB elected to come to Florida under its "gimmick offense".

Throughout history, the Gators have always been close to beating the powerhouses, but were always a little short. Part of it was that it was rare for big name talent to come to Florida until the Charley Pell days, unless that big name talent was from Florida. If you believe that a top-ranked football team needs a top-ranked QB, then look at Florida and you can see that it rarely had nationally, top-ranked QBs come to Gainesville until recently. The only Parade All American QBs that I know of that ever came to Florida were Bobby Sabelhaus (1994), Luke Bencie (1993), Tim Olmstead (1997), Rex Grossman (1998), Brock Berlin (1999), and Chris Leak (2003), and some kid named Tim Tebow (2006). Urban Meyer was able to attract a lot of Parade All Americans at other positions, which is one of his strengths as a head coach. Even Spurrier will admit that he failed at coaching up his Parade All American QBs--only Rex Grossman succeeded under his tutelage.

 

[DRU2012]

Leakfan12, Escambia94
I can only tell you how I and my friends saw it back then: Like I said, Dickey STARTED fine, but seemed to "drift" his last few seasons (this was back in the days when students stayed through their senior years and coaches weren't just fired for "an off season or two" unless they were caught doing something that embarrassed or cost the program--especially programs like UF's: Our standards and expectations were not what they are now, to say the least), and he really DID seem to purposefully not just do nothing, but made conscious moves his last couple of years (1977-78) to leave the team with no one--even Collinsworth came here 'cause he always WANTED to be a Gator (young men used to see THOSE kinds of promises through, too), and has said since that if anything, he got the distinct impression Dickey was trying to discourage him, one of the top-rated "athletes" in the country (he could have been a quarteback, too--many teams wanted him for that--but he was considered "too tall and rangy"--can you BELIEVE it?!!--to make it as a QB in the pros, so he wanted a chance to focus on becoming a WR at UF) his senior year in highschool , "NOT to come to UF...It was weird, man"...but "everyone knew the writing was on the wall", that Dickey wouldn't be coach anymore by the time he got here, so he came anyway.
As for Shanahan, as I say, he came as OC for the one year, as the young "hot whiz-kid" installed that first "fun and gun"-offense that was well-named and was a harbinger of what Spurrier would come in and elaborate on, making us a pinball-scoring, offensive powerhouse in later years...Then Shanahan bailed after one year--a sudden move that surprised everyone (as you say, with everything blowing up for Hall he COULD have likely been the next Head Coach--and I'm not sure if that would have been a good or bad thing EITHER) and never mentioned us again, never even acknowledges that year in later resume or interviews. Maybe it was (and continues to be, out of habit) a desperate wish to not be connected with Galen Hall's Switzer-styled supposed glad-handing pay-offs and get-the-goods-on-ya pressure to get what he wanted in "the back room", at least some of which Mikey HAD to be aware of--but we noticed and really resented this slight, wrote HIM off like he had us, and I personally have never liked, trusted or respected him since. He was the OTHER reason I hated the Broncos until #15 was with them...The first reason is still there, and in charge), and I will continue to despise the Redskins even more deeply now that Shanahan is with THEM.

 

[DRU2012]

I still have mixed feelings. He did bring us 2 titles(although who wouldnt have with the team we had). I just don't like the way he left and where he's at now

Well, you know I agree with you TOTALLY on this one IA--WITHOUT the "mixed feelings"...the more time goes on, the more we learn, the more "the spell" is broken, and the more clear his true nature and depth-of-betrayal, and the less reason to bother even considering "being fair"...OK, he brought us two Nat'l Championships in 3 years--but had he maintained focus one more season, that team (the best Gator team EVER, talent-wise, top-to-bottom--the Champs from the year before, only older, more experienced and filled out, healthier and more balanced) would have had "back-to-back and 3 in 4 years", and he was right the first time when he wanted to step down, as it turns out: On some level, he KNEW he'd blown it, and that it was about to get much worse...NOT that there was anything noble in that impulse, since we now know that Meyer is all about Meyer alone, and he just didn't want to have to face his own mess.

 

[Leakfan12]

I think Dickey made a bad choice especially since he did have John Reaves who threw for 24 touchdowns (which was a lot back then) in 1969 and Carlos Alvarez being juniors aheading toward the 1970 season. I think a good college coach adapt to the talent he has instead force his gameplan probably the reason he wasn't good as Graves, Spurrier, and yes Meyer. Though Spurrier instill his gameplan and even though Emmitt Smith decide to go to the NFL it worked. Also Meyer which people said, it wouldn't work in the SEC like Spurrier plan.

 

[Block O]

I love this guy!!! We haven't had this intensity at tOSU since Woody Hayes

 

[Escambia94]

I think most coaches "force" their system onto the players. It is what they know. It just so happens that some systems have more flexibility, and some systems are suited for the kind of athletes that get recruited to that school. For example, no coach hired by Nebraska would ever try running the Urban Attack, Run and Shoot, or Red Raider offenses. Any coach attempting that would fail, because none of those take advantage of the beefy athletes that are typically attracted to Nebraska. Even back in the 1970s, Florida did not attract the right athletes for that wishbone offense. There is something about the average Florida and Nebraska recruit that suggests certain offenses cannot be forced onto those athletes at a competitive level, considering both schools have over 50% in-state recruits. Look at Boise State, which has under 50% of in state recruits, especially at key positions. Any offense that is multiple and adaptable can be forced. Most offenses are not truly multiple and adaptable.

Steve Spurrier found that his pro set multiple offense was not very adaptable. He only truly found one QB that fit his offense, despite attracting several Parade All American QBs, most of them failing entirely or transferring and succeeding elsewhere.

Urban Meyer's offense as he described in his book worked in Florida. It started to fail when he broke his own rules for recruits. Brantley was not the right QB for him--Newton was. Rainey was probably too small to be his next Harvin, but maybe not too small to be his next Wynne. So, did Urban force his offense onto these kids? Well, the kids could have chosen other schools that were better suited for them. The coaches really only know one system, and that is the system on their resume that got them hired.

 

[DRU2012]

Escambia94
I agree with the general "rule", can think of all KINDS of examples (frustrating ones!) that fit, but I'm sure you know there are (to varying degrees) other factors as well. There is one particular pitfall that transcends style AND adaptability. Coaches pay lip-service to it (every one of those you name, btw) but, just as they become enamored of talent to the exclusion of considering its "fit" in their SYSTEM, that same trap catches them in another regard: Coaches stop recruiting for the "fit" of individuals to their TEAMS. Able to compete for the top talent, they neglect to still take into account strength-of-character, compatibility and the chemistry AMONG incoming players and the ones already there: They fall in love with "talent" alone.
When Meyer compounded this common "fateful error" with judging that "talent" according to "experts' rankings" and "highlight-reels", the stage was set for failure and the slow-slide to mediocrity. His success at tOSU will depend to a great degree on whether he learned his lesson, but note: Immediate improvement won't be the test...Not yet in a position to "remake" his team, circumstances basically demand that he "adapt". YOUR point will be mainly dominant here, E-: IF his "system" fits the players' general talents on the team he has inherited (and has added substantially to, in the latest recruiting cycle), and there appear signs that it does, then there will be some success in the short- to mid-term. However, if he veers from his own "best interests"--really, those of the TEAM that he must coach--both (as you put it) breaks his own rules for "player-type", AND again falls into the "talent trap" I have described, then the success won't be as great, it won't go near as far, and the down-side will arrive much sooner than before.
ALL coaches would do well to learn this lesson. The weird thing is that they all TALK about it, claim it as their own approach--yet it turns out to be one of those things that you can "judge the man by":
The true honesty and sincerity of a Head Coach can be reckoned by the degree of variance between how loudly and strongly he proclaims this trait in himself, and its supposed importance to him, and the actual reality of its application in his life and approach, especially to his team.

 

[Leakfan12]

Wait both John Brantleys sucked as Gator QB? Maybe Meyer and company should have let the fourth go to Texas.

 

[Escambia94]

Wait both John Brantleys sucked as Gator QB? Maybe Meyer and company should have let the fourth go to Texas.

I have stated it many times. Both Brantley QBs are in the bottom five statistically since 1976, the first year I can dig up statistics.

Give JB4 credit for coming to Florida despite the poor fit on offense. He is a Gator through and through, even if his statistics are bad.

Before we bash Urban Meyer for starting JB4, don't forget that Meyer won the MNC with a pro style passer named Chris Leak. If the Brantley experiment had worked, Meyer would have rewritten his offense to focus more on the spread versus the option in his spread option offense. Remember that Bill Belichik and Josh McDaniel came to Gainesville and borrowed Urban Meyer's offense and adapted it for an explosive offense for the New England Patriots. I bet Meyer makes it work at tOSU and gives new life to the Urban Attack by decreasing the emphasis on option while keeping bits of the zone read.

 

[DRU2012]

While we're talking Brantleys, let's at least give credit where it's due: The "other Brantley", Scot, was actually the "other star" on that woeful late '70s-team. Where Cris C., "The Cadillac", was our star on offense, Scot B. was our defensive star, an absolute wild man who kept spirits up around the team and "entertained the masses"--even having his own "Ozzy Osborne" moment that really happened: I can't remember the exact circumstances (I THINK it was on the sidelines, right before a game), but before a crowded stadium and all his teammates Scot held up a live, twitching frog over his bent-back head, dropped it into open mouth and SWALLOWED IT WHOLE! The reason he was a star was NOT just because of his wild, colorful OFF-field antics, but because these were just the extra-curricular manifestations of the way he tirelessly, relentlessly threw himself around the field, hitting hard and disrupting the other teams' offensive efforts. Unfortunately, I don't recall us having anyone else who came even close to consistently rising to the occasion beside him. Oh, his teammates loved him and TRIED to keep up, but I guess they just didn't have the talent, self-discipline or self-motivation to manage it. Going by Coach Muschamp's theory of "being able to judge the team you had only later, by seeing who got drafted into the pros, and how high they went", I believe we just had the two meaningful upper-round (if not FIRST-round--I just don't remember for sure: both were high, tho') picks--Cris to the Bengals and Scot to the Bucks (I don't think it was the same year, tho'--maybe Scot, then Cris a year later).

(...I see you have Scot B. at #18, and this is a great example of how doing this kind of thing (listing "Greatest.."-ANYTHING in "order of importance"/"greatness of talent"), while seemingly difficult to get right, turns out pretty damn well if you stay "intuitive and organic"...In other words, I figure that's just about as fair and accurate a placement as I can imagine; as a "random test" (not intended as that, but now that it's worked out that way, a good one) it shows you can probably trust your instincts and keep doing exactly what you have been, E-...For everyone else, try your own "random reverse-direction test": pick a more obscure Gator out of your memory, one good enough to land on the list, in your view, give him a ranking, and then check that against where he stands on this still-developing list. I had Scot Brantley, for eg., "right around #20 or so", after writing the above and BEFORE switching over to the actual list...if there's too much of a variance, on the other hand, or your guy is not there at all, maybe there's a reason--or maybe E- just "missed him". Either way, it's the start of further discussion, which is what this is all about--Killing time, remember?)

 

[robdog]

Can't hate on the guy. He did great things with talented players and won 2 National Titles. Does it suck he went to Ohio? Sure. But it is what he wanted to do, and he still can be remember for the great things he did as a Florida Gator.

 

[DRU2012]

Can't hate on the guy. He did great things with talented players and won 2 National Titles. Does it suck he went to Ohio? Sure. But it is what he wanted to do, and he still can be remember for the great things he did as a Florida Gator.

OK--That's the "good-vibe", "Politically Correct", good PR, "We're not bitter--We're reasonable folk here in North Central Florida"-approach for public consumption in certain powerfully influential circles OUTSIDE of Gainesville--indeed, outside Gator NATION--but it is NOT how most of us feel, and the more we learn and reconsider Meyer's tenure AND exit in that light, the larger the disparity grows between this kind of "reasonable reflection" and a hardening consensus among most that while we don't "hate on" a man who brought us 2 Championships, neither can we see him in the same trusting and unquestioning light that we once may have, and are more and more arriving at a kind of ambivalent neutrality...We aren't likely to be throwing "Urban Meyer Welcome Back !" pre- or half-time salutes (as we have done with SOS) any decade soon, I assure you--wouldn't you agree, robdog?

 

[Escambia94]

Years from now, I think the Gator Nation will welcome back Urban Meyer. For the next few years, we will act like spoiled, abandoned children. For the next few years, whenever Ohio State snags a high school kid from Florida we will accuse him of poaching, even though they already have Florida boys at Ohio State, Nebraska, USC, Notre Dame, etc.

 

[DRU2012]

Years from now, I think the Gator Nation will welcome back Urban Meyer. For the next few years, we will act like spoiled, abandoned children. For the next few years, whenever Ohio State snags a high school kid from Florida we will accuse him of poaching, even though they already have Florida boys at Ohio State, Nebraska, USC, Notre Dame, etc.

E-, my friend, you are seriously underestimating the Gator tendency and ability to hold a deep and long-time grudge against coaches who are perceived to have "done us wrong", once such a consensus has solidified and begun to gather momentum--as I see all the signs of which happening here. Indeed, the higher their original place in our affection and approval, the deeper and MORE stubborn the long-term refusal to budge on re-evaluation. I'm telling you, the second portion of your above observation will be in effect for a very long time, precluding ANY softening on the "Meyer Question" in the slightest until after he has left tOSU (and only then without great success there--any kind of success that even HINTS at, let alone echoes his time at UF--in other words, any National Championships while a "F*ckeye"--will pretty well sink ANY rapprochement with UF...He'll be all tOSU-property from then on...abject failure, on the other hand and ironically enough, makes the opposite possible, at least). Even then, we're talking "Decades from now" rather than "Years...":
Say we're "like spoiled, abandoned children" if you must, BUT calling us BOTH in my view hints at some of our valid GROUNDS for anger and resentment--children, perhaps, but do "abandoned" ones EVER get over that sense of betrayal? I'm just sayin'...Even SOS, who did it a whole different way, and in careful stages withOUT burning his bridges (he has been spoken of as potential "successor" by a certain portion of "The Nation" whenever there has been an opening here at Head Coach ever since, after all), even so has slowly-but-steadily slid in the overall esteem in which he was once held here, a quiet but relentless "revision" to both the emotional and analytical assessments of his "legacy" here coming apace with that re-evaluation, of his exit AND post-UF relationship with his alma mater. He TRIED to remain "The Shining OBC In the Gator Pantheon", but even with a statue of him on campus (notably as a QB/Heisman Winner--NOT as a Coach-With-the-Visor, remember), more and more "cracks in the facade" have appeared and been elaborated upon in latter years.
THAT'S for SOS, a completely different situation and history...Now, really, never mind the manner in which we are judged by outsiders, especially the "Army of Haters":
HOW long is it likely to be before Urban Meyer is "welcomed back" as if "all is forgiven and forgotten"?!!
(See what I'm saying?)

 

[Escambia94]

The way I see it, the majority of modern fans, at least the more vocal ones that the media focuses on, are younger people with short-term memories. When I walked around the campus in the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s for Homecoming parade, everyone remembered players from the old days. Nowadays, it seems that fans only remember the last couple years. I would say that in four years, 50% of the fans will not remember Urban Meyer. I have run into people that do not remember Ron Zook! Seriously? I have run into people who do not understand a thing about Steve Spurrier. A lot of fans nowadays are already forgetting players like Chris Leak and Rex Grossman.

Give it four years. Apparently, this generation that makes the most noise in public has a four-year memory.

 

[DRU2012]

(Sigh) When you put it that way, I can't really argue, cynical as I am regarding that sort of thing...Still, there are a WHOLE lot of Gator alumni out there, too--and at least for the foreseeable, any mistakenly premature call for any type of "Welcome Back Urban Meyer" event (eg. at "Homecoming"--can you imagine?!!) would be overwhelmingly attacked and made into an enormous controversy by those very alumni--we STILL outnumber the 50,000 (tops) on-Campus right now, ENORMOUSLY outnumber them: WE are "Gator Nation", and I'm telling you, it just isn't going to happen for a generation or more, even taking your "sad but true facts" into account.
(Then again, as that "King of American Literary Cynics", H.L. Mencken once said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people"--and ya could probably replace the word "intelligence" with "memory" in that statement and it might be JUST as true...)

 

[Leakfan12]

I would say that in four years, 50% of the fans will not remember Urban Meyer. I have run into people that do not remember Ron Zook! Seriously?

I cry BS because I think people DO REMEMBER Ron Zook but they chose not to

 

[Escambia94]

I literally met 19 year old kids who could not connect the name Ron Zook to Gator history. We have a generation of kids that does not care for history. They prefer to live in the now and have no respect for anything that happened since the last Ryan Seacrest top 40 countdown.

 

[DRU2012]

Yes, but that being the case, in a much broader sense, it reflects larger, WIDER problems that may well be in the process of "coming home to roost" once and for all--and ones so large, part of a huge system-of-denial among the "old and powerful", and willful, self-indulgent "dumbing-down" at work in every aspect of our society, that there is not a damn thing we can do about it...
Sometimes I think sports--once all sports but long since whittled down mainly to my deep and loyal support for our Gator football program--is my one remaining, all important refuge FROM all of those outside, ever-worsening "realities" that I am forced to notice, sometimes even to confront, in that "world at-large"...I gotta feeling I'm not alone in this regard, either.

 

[DRU2012]

To put this another way--and I WILL, because I think it is that important--the starting point here is that famous quote (from Santayana? ...Doesn't matter), to the effect of "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".
It is therefore our responsibility to keep the central points here alive and in play--hopefully to head off the same old mistakes, but failing that (because you're right, people's memories are short, and it seems a sad and frustrating fact of human nature that the same cycles-of-stupidity and failure repeat themselves again and again), try to see that maybe they are recognized sooner--or, even better, that the younger fans learn some patience, come to recognize when we DO get a coach with vision, perspective and a long-term plan. We have someone like that now, and as well as he is doing in rebuilding our team for long-term success, I suspect there will be those who will begin to show impatience at the pace of that progress. The reality of, say, a "9-and-3 (+or- 1)"-season (or, heaven forbid, "+or- 1" turns out to mean "8-and-4") in 2012 will bring some level of criticism and complaint in certain quarters, some second-guessing as to how quickly we are coming along. This is when we will have to "keep our eyes on the prize", remain aware of the "big picture" in which this is all playing out over time. We have got to give this coach, his staff and the program they are building the time and support they need to see it through, and part of that will probably mean defending them against those that demand "instant gratification", rather than "patient confidence and support".

 

[Escambia94]

I know what you mean about learning from history. The question is, which lesson shall we learn from Urban Meyer and Will Muschamp?

I read an article that compared all the major football programs and looked for trends. Some notes that will shape our history lesson:

- Only a dozen schools have the resources to win the national championship using the various poll systems used for a century. Florida, obviously, is one of them.
- Most successful schools can squeeze about 6 to 10 good years out of a coach and his primary coaching trees.
- Most successful schools alternate good and bad cycles.
- Coaches with long term success have larger coaching trees, or wind up with NCAA sanctions or other legal issues.

Ray Graves did great things for Florida, but the program lacked the resources then to win a national championship. Doug Dickey screwed the Gators in the 1970s, but Charley Pell turned it around and did some good things in his six years, until he screwed up. Galen Hall was up and down in his six years, mostly due to Charley Pell's violations. Steve Spurrier was successful with Florida for most of his 12 years, then Ron Zook failed to meet expectations in his 3 years. Urban Meyer was successful for most of his 6 years, and now we need to figure out if Muschamp is a Dickey, Pell, or Zook. If the history lesson is from Pell, a protege of a great coach (Bear Bryant), then Muschamp (a protege of Les Miles) can be successful as long as he gets good assistants, keeps growing his coaching tree, and stays out of trouble. If the history lesson is from Dickey, then Muschamp has his work cut out for him as he sits in between two winning coaches. Same with Zook.