Ufgatorfan
VIP Member
It amazes me that Alabame can reload, start freshman and still look good. Good definition of a well coached team.
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Game Day (11/15/14): 'Cocks in The Swamp
- Thread starter Escambia94
- Start date
Well. I am done.
awebbf5
VIP Member
Yeah im not watching next week and if muschamp isn't fired I won't watch the fsu game
I am still going to watch the Gators crawl to a 6-5/ 4-4 season, but I am done commentating.
Did you really expect anything else, once they tied us--after everything ELSE that had happened. EVERYONE knows, it's a saying 'cause it's TRUE:
"You can't just flick the switch, expect to turn an offense on suddenly when you "need" it."
We were in "off" mode the whole SECOND HALF. Were lucky to get the lead, then did EVERYTHING to lose it, STILL only had to manage the proper procedures on a FG-try to ice it, THEN only had to BLOCK right on a subsequent punt after our D shut 'em down then handed back to us AGAIN for another 3-and-out, and couldn't manage even THAT.
I switched away from football entirely as he was running it in to end it, and I am DONE now with any further discussion of "if, when, how" when it comes to this staff, Head Coach on down. Yes, this was an ENORMOUS, egregious collapse that displayed everything wrong with everything a coaching staff, top to bottom, is responsible for.
BUT IT SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN THAT. Second one we "should have won" but lost at the end--but this one is even clearer in its being a COACHING failure. Last time they could point to a player dropping a pass to make the difference. This time it took the equivalent of a "campaign of failure" last few minutes, set up by a totally flawed philosophy this team and program has been too long saddled with--throughout this game, yes, but before that for the season, in general it becomes clear since the moment Muschamp GOT here.. And I'm gonna say it: A curse on Foley for trying to keep putting a "good face" on it, for still looking for ways NOT to do what has been the clear "right choice" for some time. I won't argue about it, and I frankly won't LISTEN to it any longer.
We thought it was the fault of a procession of OCs--and they WERE poor choices, as it turned out. And Foley was the architect., the man who found, chose and hired them...Oh, we know now that everything they did matched the "philosophy" of the Head Coach, that his influence, even outright instructions affected the look, feel and at times actual play-selection of every ONE of these unwatchable, all-too-STOPable offenses, but it is the WAY this whole team has played, has "felt" and therefore performed (this team lives, breathes, so not that surprisingly, PLAYS tight, without any joy or inspiration--little fun to watch even when they WIN) that hangs Foley himself, in my mind. It shouldn't have TAKEN such losses to convince him we were on the wrong track. Even now, Look: It took a total, complete (for us) terrible dark COMEDY of errors to lose this one...Would it have been OK if one more thing had bounced our way, somehow LUCK pulled it out for us at the end? Would that have had him still talking about, thinking about keeping Muschamp, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE COULD? Because the MEDIA were saying things that gave him "cover" to do so? WHY?!!! And if he is so stuck to Muschamp, why shouldn't he be just as exposed now? And how smart is it to leave the choice and process for finding and hiring the NEXT guy in his hands? How wrong is one man allowed to be, and still given such single-handed, arbitrary control over our future? Is he even fully ready to make the move NOW?
So I don't even want to hear the debate from here on in. Just think about what we just saw. Work backwards, in increments: Last 5 minutes of the game. Then 4th qrtr. Then from the start of the game. Then from BACK a few games, and so on, to back to that first year, Weiss as our OC--if you even have to GO that far--'cause I figure that long before you will see clearly the very things I'm talking about, if you haven't LONG since already, as most of you no doubt do.
So "Fire Muschamp!" (duuuhhhh! WAY past time), and "F*ck Foley", whatever the true "longterm braintrust" of the Florida Gators have to consider and deal with behind the scenes in making whatever call they MAKE there.
Look, I don't wanna HEAR all the LOGICAL and PRACTICAL consideratiopns anyone figures they have a better handle on than me--I know and understand more of all that than some think, and I have to say, AM saying here, that ultimately, I DON'T CARE!!!: If we wanna FIX this program, we're gonna have to face SERIOUS, radical surgery...No half-way measures will get it done now. We can talk about what that means, how far to go and why, at another time...I'm too angry, too SICK of knowing we KNEW all this, or should have, some time ago.
Please just don't hand me anymore "moderate" "thoughtful", or "balanced" "reasoning"--I want to SEE "ACTION", something done. I need to see recognition that we are WAY off course, and clear sign that we are ready, willing and able, and KNOW it, to head in a new direction. THEN we'll talk about it
(Sorry--NOTHING "personal" aimed at anyone here in all of that...On re-reading see maybe I sound like I'm angry--which I AM, but only at this staff, not just the despicable sequence of decisions and attitudes we saw displayed here today, angry SICK even through a decent Crown-buzz as I AM, and at the whole process, but at the long PARADE of bad moves and stubborn "staying of the course" that has us all just mired in SH*T and hopelessness now.)
"You can't just flick the switch, expect to turn an offense on suddenly when you "need" it."
We were in "off" mode the whole SECOND HALF. Were lucky to get the lead, then did EVERYTHING to lose it, STILL only had to manage the proper procedures on a FG-try to ice it, THEN only had to BLOCK right on a subsequent punt after our D shut 'em down then handed back to us AGAIN for another 3-and-out, and couldn't manage even THAT.
I switched away from football entirely as he was running it in to end it, and I am DONE now with any further discussion of "if, when, how" when it comes to this staff, Head Coach on down. Yes, this was an ENORMOUS, egregious collapse that displayed everything wrong with everything a coaching staff, top to bottom, is responsible for.
BUT IT SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN THAT. Second one we "should have won" but lost at the end--but this one is even clearer in its being a COACHING failure. Last time they could point to a player dropping a pass to make the difference. This time it took the equivalent of a "campaign of failure" last few minutes, set up by a totally flawed philosophy this team and program has been too long saddled with--throughout this game, yes, but before that for the season, in general it becomes clear since the moment Muschamp GOT here.. And I'm gonna say it: A curse on Foley for trying to keep putting a "good face" on it, for still looking for ways NOT to do what has been the clear "right choice" for some time. I won't argue about it, and I frankly won't LISTEN to it any longer.
We thought it was the fault of a procession of OCs--and they WERE poor choices, as it turned out. And Foley was the architect., the man who found, chose and hired them...Oh, we know now that everything they did matched the "philosophy" of the Head Coach, that his influence, even outright instructions affected the look, feel and at times actual play-selection of every ONE of these unwatchable, all-too-STOPable offenses, but it is the WAY this whole team has played, has "felt" and therefore performed (this team lives, breathes, so not that surprisingly, PLAYS tight, without any joy or inspiration--little fun to watch even when they WIN) that hangs Foley himself, in my mind. It shouldn't have TAKEN such losses to convince him we were on the wrong track. Even now, Look: It took a total, complete (for us) terrible dark COMEDY of errors to lose this one...Would it have been OK if one more thing had bounced our way, somehow LUCK pulled it out for us at the end? Would that have had him still talking about, thinking about keeping Muschamp, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE COULD? Because the MEDIA were saying things that gave him "cover" to do so? WHY?!!! And if he is so stuck to Muschamp, why shouldn't he be just as exposed now? And how smart is it to leave the choice and process for finding and hiring the NEXT guy in his hands? How wrong is one man allowed to be, and still given such single-handed, arbitrary control over our future? Is he even fully ready to make the move NOW?
So I don't even want to hear the debate from here on in. Just think about what we just saw. Work backwards, in increments: Last 5 minutes of the game. Then 4th qrtr. Then from the start of the game. Then from BACK a few games, and so on, to back to that first year, Weiss as our OC--if you even have to GO that far--'cause I figure that long before you will see clearly the very things I'm talking about, if you haven't LONG since already, as most of you no doubt do.
So "Fire Muschamp!" (duuuhhhh! WAY past time), and "F*ck Foley", whatever the true "longterm braintrust" of the Florida Gators have to consider and deal with behind the scenes in making whatever call they MAKE there.
Look, I don't wanna HEAR all the LOGICAL and PRACTICAL consideratiopns anyone figures they have a better handle on than me--I know and understand more of all that than some think, and I have to say, AM saying here, that ultimately, I DON'T CARE!!!: If we wanna FIX this program, we're gonna have to face SERIOUS, radical surgery...No half-way measures will get it done now. We can talk about what that means, how far to go and why, at another time...I'm too angry, too SICK of knowing we KNEW all this, or should have, some time ago.
Please just don't hand me anymore "moderate" "thoughtful", or "balanced" "reasoning"--I want to SEE "ACTION", something done. I need to see recognition that we are WAY off course, and clear sign that we are ready, willing and able, and KNOW it, to head in a new direction. THEN we'll talk about it
(Sorry--NOTHING "personal" aimed at anyone here in all of that...On re-reading see maybe I sound like I'm angry--which I AM, but only at this staff, not just the despicable sequence of decisions and attitudes we saw displayed here today, angry SICK even through a decent Crown-buzz as I AM, and at the whole process, but at the long PARADE of bad moves and stubborn "staying of the course" that has us all just mired in SH*T and hopelessness now.)
If I am wrong and he is fired on Monday, then that is fine with me as well. I just do not think that it will happen based on how Muschamp's contract is structured, how Foley has handled these issues in the past, and most of all, the lack of home run hires on the market now.
See, this goes BEYOND the "Fire Muschamp" pale...I really HAVE to raise the "Foley's Fault" flag once more.
(see my comments above) Just as GAME shouldn't have come to this, whole situation with our Coach, whole back'n'forth re "Will Foley keep him//SHOULD Foley keep him?" and so on shouldn't have come to this--not by now. Just as MusRoper and co. should have learned how all this works, how things GO in college football play LONG before this. so should Foley have read, recognized and understood what was happening with this team, program and in particular this season long before now. I ask you all to at least THINK about whether we don't have a problem a ROOT problem there as well.
That just is not how it works. The Florida head coach is an employee of the University Athletics Association, not the University of Florida. The Florida athletic director is a hired administrator of the University of Florida, like the UF president. You would not fire the AD over a bad football team anymore than you would fire the school president over one college algebra class having bad grades.
Besides, Florida was just named the most successful athletic program across all sports. Florida has been the #1 or #2 sports program in NCAA for about a decade. Florida consistently generates top 10 revenue. Jeremy Foley is considered the top athletic director in the nation, and has been considered so for over a decade.
Now, Florida football in terms of the product on the field has sucked for quite a while. What you really have to understand is that Florida has a very strong alumni base and will still generate more profit than FSU's program even if they win another national championship. FSU, for example, only has an athletic board that is much smaller than UF's. FSU is operating in the hole and actually borrows money from the state of Florida to help offset the cost of the indoor practice facility. UF, on the other hand, would only build an indoor practice facility if it wanted to spend some of its profit. Other schools in other states operate entirely differently.
The key takeaway is that Florida's revenue is not tied to wins and losses as tightly as you would assume. FSU, on the other hand, borrows money from the state and its revenue is tied to wins and championships. Just to show you how different the two schools are, Jim Fisher gets a bonus for winning a "state championship" or a division championship. Will Muschamp's only bonuses are for SEC championships (not division championships) and national championships. He might have a bonus for academics as well. He definitely can be penalized for lack of academics, unlike FSU.
miltongator
Gator Fan
This will go down in Florida Football history as "The Lost Decade". Thanks a lot Will Muschamp and J Foley.
In an odd twist of fate, the man that pretty much sealed the deal on whether or not Florida should keep Muschamp, Steve Spurrier, is also advocating to keep him. He starts off supporting Muschamp, and then goes back at 6:00 of the video and supports him some more. As an alumnus and Gator Great, Spurrier could actually convince the UAA and Foley to keep Muschamp.
Look, you're completely missing my point here--and all I asked anyone here to do is CONSIDER that point, "where RESPONSIBILITY lies in all of this", anyway.
I just will not argue the intricacies of contract law and administrational politics here and now--if EVER on this site. I just feel that since we are talking "blame", and what should happen next because of it, and/or at least "what needs to happen eventually, however, whenever it should or is at the VERY least LIKELY or practical to happen", then it behooves us to consider FOLEY'S part in all of this. Is that fair and qualified enough?
And if not, well, then fine, folks who feel that way can just draw the line there, SAY they don't think it's Foley's fault, and/or we can't fire Foley, he's too valuable or too powerful or too SOMETHING, whatever it is we just can't DO that, in their view. I say that's wrong, that (remember?) "NO one is bigger than the Program". And personally, I want that view, and who sees it that way, out in the open, not part of some unsayable, unthinkable thing that has a life and "reality" all its own BECAUSE it isn't discussed, because it isn't "to be talked about".
EVERYTHING about what's happening inside this program, and everyone with a role in it, ought to be stripped of "cover" and open to scrutiny, far as I'm concerned. We'd be better off for it; but I know that's never going to be the case, even at a so-called "Public", "State" University--and anyway, I'm not naive: I'm not so sure I'd BE "for it" if/when things are going well. Point here is, they're not, there clearly are or have been obstacles within that Byzantine power-structure, and we DO have recourse when it comes to people hired and paid by that University. SOMEONE does, at any rate--and maybe it is time, if necessary, to put public pressure on THEM, if that's the only way to effect change(s) that the individual(s) in question continue to resist. Follow?
And that's about as clear as I can make it, and as far back down that road I will ask anyone here to go.
Tell you what: Spare me the litany of things "we can't really do", and I'll not press the issue of "what we SHOULD be doing" any further unless and until that's something a few more people besides me show real interest and determination to be doing.
Hell, I don't even wanna talk about getting rid of MUSCHAMP anymore unless/until it either has happened or clearly is about to. (Anyone who watched this game saw how desperate things are...How can there BE any doubt of that now among anyone interested in the program, let alone CONNECTED to it? But there IS, let's face it--and they'll be talking about it all over TV and the 'Net 'til something actually happens--which yes, probably won't be 'til the day AFTER the end of the season at LEAST). I have no more interest in doing so regarding Foley--but I'd like to see it acknowledged that he's a part of all this--and fair game. I am concerned about what WILL happen, who the "next guy" will be and how HE'LL be chosen. Given how things are and how they got that way, everything that's happened getting there, don't you think maybe that may be important, something worth considering in order to give us the best chance of getting it "right" next time?
I just will not argue the intricacies of contract law and administrational politics here and now--if EVER on this site. I just feel that since we are talking "blame", and what should happen next because of it, and/or at least "what needs to happen eventually, however, whenever it should or is at the VERY least LIKELY or practical to happen", then it behooves us to consider FOLEY'S part in all of this. Is that fair and qualified enough?
And if not, well, then fine, folks who feel that way can just draw the line there, SAY they don't think it's Foley's fault, and/or we can't fire Foley, he's too valuable or too powerful or too SOMETHING, whatever it is we just can't DO that, in their view. I say that's wrong, that (remember?) "NO one is bigger than the Program". And personally, I want that view, and who sees it that way, out in the open, not part of some unsayable, unthinkable thing that has a life and "reality" all its own BECAUSE it isn't discussed, because it isn't "to be talked about".
EVERYTHING about what's happening inside this program, and everyone with a role in it, ought to be stripped of "cover" and open to scrutiny, far as I'm concerned. We'd be better off for it; but I know that's never going to be the case, even at a so-called "Public", "State" University--and anyway, I'm not naive: I'm not so sure I'd BE "for it" if/when things are going well. Point here is, they're not, there clearly are or have been obstacles within that Byzantine power-structure, and we DO have recourse when it comes to people hired and paid by that University. SOMEONE does, at any rate--and maybe it is time, if necessary, to put public pressure on THEM, if that's the only way to effect change(s) that the individual(s) in question continue to resist. Follow?
And that's about as clear as I can make it, and as far back down that road I will ask anyone here to go.
Tell you what: Spare me the litany of things "we can't really do", and I'll not press the issue of "what we SHOULD be doing" any further unless and until that's something a few more people besides me show real interest and determination to be doing.
Hell, I don't even wanna talk about getting rid of MUSCHAMP anymore unless/until it either has happened or clearly is about to. (Anyone who watched this game saw how desperate things are...How can there BE any doubt of that now among anyone interested in the program, let alone CONNECTED to it? But there IS, let's face it--and they'll be talking about it all over TV and the 'Net 'til something actually happens--which yes, probably won't be 'til the day AFTER the end of the season at LEAST). I have no more interest in doing so regarding Foley--but I'd like to see it acknowledged that he's a part of all this--and fair game. I am concerned about what WILL happen, who the "next guy" will be and how HE'LL be chosen. Given how things are and how they got that way, everything that's happened getting there, don't you think maybe that may be important, something worth considering in order to give us the best chance of getting it "right" next time?
Yes. Exactly, mg. But what happens now may well determine whether that turns out in fact to be "rounding up" or "rounding down", all told.
More "odd", full-on "ironic", than maybe most people even think right now. I'm still "angry buzzed", so I'll try to be 1/2-way smart and not talk about it anymore right now here, but there IS another whole thing this bangs up against, something we kinda talked AROUND during the game at one point, that this may have played into here today...I'm not sure if it may have made it easier or more difficult, sooner or further away in time. Have to think about that. Another time. People do have short memories about this sorta thing, though. Part of one of those saving-graces of human existence: It is difficult to "remember pain". You can remember that you felt it, but not really what it "felt like" in any direct way...and we tend to blank out the general memories around it, in any event.
A blessing and a curse: Hard to remember, natural to put it aside, but DON'T want it back, so it's important NOT to forget or lose track of the patterns-of-behavior that put us in position to have it happen in the first place. We don't LIKE people, or things, who remind us of those times--but we often need them, if we wanna avoid doing it again.
....uuuuhhhh...It's getting so I have to either shut down or keep drinking, take a nap or go out somewhere, have dinner or something. Either way, can't hang in here, sippin' and hoping for clarity--and certainly no relief.
I wish you all some kinda peace for now, my brothers. I know that no matter how "ready" any of us thought we were for ANYTHING, even (maybe especially) for something like this, it just hurts in ways you forget it COULD hurt, as I guess I was talking about above, among other things. Anyway, we'll try an' let it go for now. Talk to y'all soon...
I wish you all some kinda peace for now, my brothers. I know that no matter how "ready" any of us thought we were for ANYTHING, even (maybe especially) for something like this, it just hurts in ways you forget it COULD hurt, as I guess I was talking about above, among other things. Anyway, we'll try an' let it go for now. Talk to y'all soon...
FrozenGator
Gator Fan
So as with all Gators games, I didn't get to see it. I am glad for it, apparently. Beating Spurrier is always something a team should aim to accomplish. That we gave it away is wildly disappointing.
I'll tell you what, though: Go get Trestman from the Bears. Once he's done getting shafted by Jay "I have naked pictures of everyone" Cutler (nickname being the only explanation he has the contract he does), he'll get let go. Get Trestman. He's exactly what is needed in Florida - offensive-minded, QB-focussed coach who remains calm at all times. He's pure class.
Then I could finally cheer for Trestman... Couldn't when he was coaching in the CFL, can't now that he's with the Bears.
I'll tell you what, though: Go get Trestman from the Bears. Once he's done getting shafted by Jay "I have naked pictures of everyone" Cutler (nickname being the only explanation he has the contract he does), he'll get let go. Get Trestman. He's exactly what is needed in Florida - offensive-minded, QB-focussed coach who remains calm at all times. He's pure class.
Then I could finally cheer for Trestman... Couldn't when he was coaching in the CFL, can't now that he's with the Bears.
Far from the worst idea I've heard as far as "the next guy" goes...and as for Cutler and your theory as to his contract, etc., that's a VERY interesting explanation--one that may well explain a LOT of weird stuff I see out there.
Now, about not seeing the game, this one even more than the rest (even the two slaughters earlier in the year): Trust us on this one, FG, you are being spared the most trying season of frustration and embarrassing spectacle the Gators have served up in decades.
This one was hard to bare even to those of us EXPECTING, preparing for something like it--in some cases telling ourselves would be a good thing if it sealed Muschamp's fate once and for all. In actual event, it was just plain disgusting. It takes real stubborn, thick-headed incompetence on the part of a whole staff to put a team in position to "pull off" this kind of bumbling collapse--and then both the depths of ill fortune AND titanic, across-the-board lack of preparation and football sense on a colossal scale to actually "get it done" in such a complex and unwavering straight-flush of consecutive failures, minute and titanic, to see it through to its bitter end.
The whole team might have just literally lay down on every play the last couple of minutes against that Gamecocks team, the way they were playing today, and NOT managed to blow the game so completely. You've heard of teams "giving the game away", but today we really SAW it. It was a real TEAM effort, too: took failures at every turn, in every move and responsibility in various efforts and activities, going back to last spring and earlier, to arrive at today's situation and manage the ridiculous sequence of cause-and-effect that ended in the genuine article, the proverbial "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".
And it really shouldn't have been that close in the first place (though we've been "practicing" THAT kind of thing all season leading up to this one). I have NEVER seen anything like it on a football field. Oh sure, there are famous "gross examples of bone-headed plays", but THIS was something unique, something that I propose you could not "achieve" as a coaching staff if you TRIED...not without informing your opponents AND PRACTICING it with them first.
Does that give you some idea, as a Gator fan, of how bafflingly painful it was to witness? Some things no amount of "venting" can help with. I'm fine as long as I keep drinking, mess around with my girlfriend, and generally think about ANYTHING else. Gotta get back to all that now. Starting to get angry/bewildered again, just talking about it.
Responsibility for coaching the football team lies with the football coach. Responsibility for hiring coaches lies with the athletic director. I have to reiterate this for the folks that confuse college football with NFL football. The rules are very different.
If you are REPEATEDLY asking fire Foley over Muschamp's handling of the team, then you might as well ask to fire the Queen of England whenever Manchester United loses a soccer match. Bringing it up in three different threads does not make it right. Maybe if those threads were titled "Do we blame Foley?" instead of "Fire Foley!", I would let it go. Read the earlier part of my response: winning football games it not the job of the athletic director. The AD just hires people.
I can agree with this. No one is bigger than the program. Yes. Keep in mind that you and I are not part of the program. We are two, old fat dudes drinking beer and yelling at the TV. Jeremy Foley gets paid $1.2M per year as an employee of the University of Florida. He is the highest paid staff member of the University of Florida--even more than university president Kent Fuch's $500k salary. Foley is a business guy that makes sure the University Athletic Association gets $100M per year to spend on sports, with about $63M going to football. Foley consistently keeps UF at over $44M of profit each year, even when Florida was 4-8 in football.
Foley is the only one who knows what will happen next. The UAA and the boosters will be exchanging lots of phone calls over the next couple weeks. I would hope someone in the conversation is recommending a search committee, as they did in 2004.
Trestman only gets $4.2M from the Bears. Florida can match that. Who would he bring as defensive coach?
@Escambia94,
PLEASE, E-, once and for all:
I am NOT arguing Foley's firing at this point, wasn't that serious about it in the original thread that (formerly--but we won't get into that) bore that in its title, but rather pushing for HIS RESPONSIBILITY in all of what has happened, and what is GOING to happen--that it should be "on the table"...discussed, acknowledged, considered, however you wanna put it, be OUT THERE. Not ignored, somehow out-of-bounds. I believe that's part of a deeper problem we have, what's gotten us here and how we can easily get it wrong--'cause HE could have, for eg. just in rehiring Muschamp if that absurdly horrible sequence HADN'T worked out just as it did to GET us beat today (OK--for us to beat OURSELVES, if you like).
And it's still out there, in his power and responsibility in hiring "the next guy", and in what I sense is a wider, deeper problem Foley himself is just a part of. I'm not SURE what it is, how deep it goes, who or what (Foley included) is cause and/or effect. I just know that if we don't get everything we can out there, be unblinkingly, unwaveringly honest and clear ourselves with at the very least the obvious factors, uncomfortable or not, the more we're leaving it to chance whether we get it right this time.
Get it RIGHT, and we can be fully "back" in 3 years--exciting and fun-to-watch along the way before THEN...But we are also on-the-brink, THIS close to being bad, irrelevant another 5, even 10 years. It'll start with salvaging something decent, at least stop-gap/fill-some-gaps/not-TOO-big-a-fall-off-in-talent in the next recruiting class--and then that "someone" with real talent, drive and a loyal, hungry young support-staff getting in there with that and all we've already got (and can hold) and DOING something with it, hit the ground running and getting the whole thing re-ignited, moving on together in the same direction in short order.
You've already made the case of how hard it may be to identify and GET that one of a very few who might, each in his own way, pull that off now. Do you think an unfettered, unquestioned Foley, who was inclined even yesterday, may even still BE "inclined", to retain Muschamp, who (like it or not) played the main role in getting him, bringing in the various subsequent OCs, has presided over everything that has happened here last few years INCLUDING those last couple of years Meyer, whom he trusted implicitly even while the man lied to him, us and everyone else while he bargained for the OSU-job and did his best to raid OUR recruiting-candidates for that "secret future job" the whole time, do you think he should go on "unfettered, unquestioned" even now? Do you STILL want that man to "do whatever he thinks is right"? Do you think he deserves that kind of blind, no-questions-asked/no-counsel-given-or-required support now?
Don't you think we should at least be able to TALK about it? I doubt there are any "rules" that forbid such "discussion"--There sure as hell shouldn't be, actual OR theoretical. And it looks like we'll have some time to do so, if you're right (as you probably are) about him not "pulling that trigger" 'til AFTER the end of the season. That may be the most constructive thing we all could DO with that time, too--all of Gator Nation, ideally, not just throwing particular "favorites" out there but examining in-depth EVERYTHING that has happened, what's been wrong, is wrong, might be fixed and/or avoided in the time and choices ahead.
I'm not just talking about some blame-fest, either--though I'd feel a little better about Foley himself if I heard, saw, was able to discern the SLIGHTEST sign of him accepting open responsibility for any missteps or flawed-decisions along the way so far, was thus ready, willing, ABLE to learn and do better, seek and accept help and input from others etc. in the time and job ahead. But all I'm proposing here and now, mainly all along in fact, is that we at least begin to set a foundation of making sure everything and everyone a part of that process do so in the full light of public scrutiny--even MORE so anyone directly involved in it...and who is more "directly involved" than Foley?
If there IS anyone, we need to identify him/them and shine that same spotlight on THEM, too.
(Oh--and we can go ahead with all this no matter WHAT the various rules and procedures, formal, traditional, , "official" or "back room" ones may or may not apply among the folks who will actually "kick this thing around", ultimately play their parts in getting it DONE: We're who we are: concerned, passionate and involved fans on a "relatively-small-but-well-thought-of" Gator-site, who have no "real power" but perhaps more "influence" than we often imagine. You "put it out there", and you just never know how far it really goes, what the long term, "butterfly-beats-its-wings causing a hurricane"-effect any such action can end up having, made all the more possible by the modern internet. So we do this for OURSELVES--with the knowledge, hope and maybe sense-of-responsibility that the moment and question deserves.)
PLEASE, E-, once and for all:
I am NOT arguing Foley's firing at this point, wasn't that serious about it in the original thread that (formerly--but we won't get into that) bore that in its title, but rather pushing for HIS RESPONSIBILITY in all of what has happened, and what is GOING to happen--that it should be "on the table"...discussed, acknowledged, considered, however you wanna put it, be OUT THERE. Not ignored, somehow out-of-bounds. I believe that's part of a deeper problem we have, what's gotten us here and how we can easily get it wrong--'cause HE could have, for eg. just in rehiring Muschamp if that absurdly horrible sequence HADN'T worked out just as it did to GET us beat today (OK--for us to beat OURSELVES, if you like).
And it's still out there, in his power and responsibility in hiring "the next guy", and in what I sense is a wider, deeper problem Foley himself is just a part of. I'm not SURE what it is, how deep it goes, who or what (Foley included) is cause and/or effect. I just know that if we don't get everything we can out there, be unblinkingly, unwaveringly honest and clear ourselves with at the very least the obvious factors, uncomfortable or not, the more we're leaving it to chance whether we get it right this time.
Get it RIGHT, and we can be fully "back" in 3 years--exciting and fun-to-watch along the way before THEN...But we are also on-the-brink, THIS close to being bad, irrelevant another 5, even 10 years. It'll start with salvaging something decent, at least stop-gap/fill-some-gaps/not-TOO-big-a-fall-off-in-talent in the next recruiting class--and then that "someone" with real talent, drive and a loyal, hungry young support-staff getting in there with that and all we've already got (and can hold) and DOING something with it, hit the ground running and getting the whole thing re-ignited, moving on together in the same direction in short order.
You've already made the case of how hard it may be to identify and GET that one of a very few who might, each in his own way, pull that off now. Do you think an unfettered, unquestioned Foley, who was inclined even yesterday, may even still BE "inclined", to retain Muschamp, who (like it or not) played the main role in getting him, bringing in the various subsequent OCs, has presided over everything that has happened here last few years INCLUDING those last couple of years Meyer, whom he trusted implicitly even while the man lied to him, us and everyone else while he bargained for the OSU-job and did his best to raid OUR recruiting-candidates for that "secret future job" the whole time, do you think he should go on "unfettered, unquestioned" even now? Do you STILL want that man to "do whatever he thinks is right"? Do you think he deserves that kind of blind, no-questions-asked/no-counsel-given-or-required support now?
Don't you think we should at least be able to TALK about it? I doubt there are any "rules" that forbid such "discussion"--There sure as hell shouldn't be, actual OR theoretical. And it looks like we'll have some time to do so, if you're right (as you probably are) about him not "pulling that trigger" 'til AFTER the end of the season. That may be the most constructive thing we all could DO with that time, too--all of Gator Nation, ideally, not just throwing particular "favorites" out there but examining in-depth EVERYTHING that has happened, what's been wrong, is wrong, might be fixed and/or avoided in the time and choices ahead.
I'm not just talking about some blame-fest, either--though I'd feel a little better about Foley himself if I heard, saw, was able to discern the SLIGHTEST sign of him accepting open responsibility for any missteps or flawed-decisions along the way so far, was thus ready, willing, ABLE to learn and do better, seek and accept help and input from others etc. in the time and job ahead. But all I'm proposing here and now, mainly all along in fact, is that we at least begin to set a foundation of making sure everything and everyone a part of that process do so in the full light of public scrutiny--even MORE so anyone directly involved in it...and who is more "directly involved" than Foley?
If there IS anyone, we need to identify him/them and shine that same spotlight on THEM, too.
(Oh--and we can go ahead with all this no matter WHAT the various rules and procedures, formal, traditional, , "official" or "back room" ones may or may not apply among the folks who will actually "kick this thing around", ultimately play their parts in getting it DONE: We're who we are: concerned, passionate and involved fans on a "relatively-small-but-well-thought-of" Gator-site, who have no "real power" but perhaps more "influence" than we often imagine. You "put it out there", and you just never know how far it really goes, what the long term, "butterfly-beats-its-wings causing a hurricane"-effect any such action can end up having, made all the more possible by the modern internet. So we do this for OURSELVES--with the knowledge, hope and maybe sense-of-responsibility that the moment and question deserves.)
miltongator
Gator Fan
I don't know why this particular loss has gotten to me so much. Will Muschamp is, I'm sure, a great person and is doing the best that he can. But, it should be painfully obvious that he was not ready for this job and is not capable of resurrecting the program. It is PAST time to move on. I bleed orange and blue but I'm not sure how much more of this coaching staff I can take. I'm optimistically looking toward the future of the program and hope we can get our swag back within 3-4 years.
