New leader (UPDATED)

[DRU2012]

I still say the list seems long (especially as I follow along here), but really isn't, in the final analysis: It will almost HAVE to be someone with experience and a track record AS a Head Coach the next time, I think, though I'm uncertain whether he'll HAVE to have Gator cred's. If that were the case, the list would be Charlie Strong, and...uh, well, it gets thin pretty quick after that as far as fitting all of the above criteria. In fact, I have the feeling we're missing one or two that could come "outta-the-blue" on first hearing, but really make better sense than the ones we're throwing around in terms of stepping in and asserting themselves, turning things around and putting a whole new HOPEFUL stamp on our future. Remember, no matter what we may think of Urban Meyer now, he was just the hot "young" guy with exciting, at that point effective new ideas when he came out of Utah's BCS-busting territory and stepped in, stepped up, and gave us a helluva run. Not saying I wanna repeat of his burn-out/blaze-of-glory/drama queen approach to success, but let's face it: The two most effective coaches in our history, though almost opposites in many ways, were NOT exactly politicians or corporate manager-types, a la Mack Brown (Thank God), but walk-their-own-road characters who understood the place, the people, and how they were gonna be a part of it...Sort of get the idea it goes with being a Gator, and everything kinda crazed and (to outsiders at least) kinda arrogantly fun. Somehow, that turns out to be missing in Will Muschamp, I'm afraid--and in some fundamental way, made the difference. Maybe not a cause-and-effect thing, but important nonetheless. I'm not saying that's the main thing--but I think maybe it's a complex set of subtleties that are a problem if they're NOT there. Just a thought that has occurred to me in the middle of all the other questions now piling up.

 

[DRU2012]

Another for thought what about Dr. Lou Holtz. He can't be any worst than what we have now.

Ten years ago I woulda said "Right ON!" (Remember when he was coaching Notre Dame in '91/'92 and we had them BEAT at the half on New Year's Day (back when all the big games were still played that day), then he came out in the 2nd half with a shrewd defense to counter our offense, and an "overload one side or the other" to beat our D throwing, and basically not only shut us down and whipped us, but gave "The Evil Genius" a lesson or two in coaching! THAT WAS COACHING, man--I hated it, but couldn't help but smile and hand it to "the ol' perfessor")...Not sure he's up to it now, just from a health and pressure (there's that word again) POV.

 

[miltongator]

I suppose the "contract" might preclude Muschump being demoted to DC. Too bad we couldn't get away with that. I guess that would be totally impractical though. Just trying to figure a way out of this mess. We've been relegated to the bottom tier of the SEC and I'm not liking it down here.

 

[DRU2012]

Hey--in case y'all missed it, there's a post of mine at the top here of pg. 3 that raises some things I just came out with off the top of my head--but when I reread it I realized I'm really interested to hear some feedback on it--espec having to do with "what's BEHIND what it takes" to be the next successful Gator Head Coach. It's not as simple as it seems, NOT just a matter of experience, fame, respect, or any other one or two obvious things. In addition to a unique situation, where we have it within our realistic grasp to bounce back pretty quick--and everyone EXPECTS you to do just THAT!--there are some subtle, more complex things about being a Gator and running the Gator Football Program, a kind of "shared character" I guess, that can't be quantified (or even easily defined or described), but damn well better be there in some form, however the Head Coach manages it. OK, I propose putting it like this:
"He's not only gonna put his stamp on the program, the program is gonna put its stamp on HIM--and he best embrace it, make it his own!" Comments?

 

[DRU2012]

I suppose the "contract" might preclude Muschump being demoted to DC. Too bad we couldn't get away with that. I guess that would be totally impractical though. Just trying to figure a way out of this mess. We've been relegated to the bottom tier of the SEC and I'm not liking it down here.

Again, as I noted elsewhere earlier, mg, the one saving grace/ray of hope: For all kinds of reasons (starting with the fact that we ARE FLORIDA, and IN Florida), it is within "our" power (well, the power of a proper leader of and with a healthy, rejuvenated program) to get BACK into that "top tier" just as fast as we have fallen out of it.
That, of course, is a whole deep and wide discussion of its own, but one I don't care to indulge in until we HAVE "a proper leader of and with a healthy, rejuvenated program" (Shoot, even the ESPN guys, who aside from Jesse never get anything right when it comes to our program, ESPECIALLY when they are tearing us down, have had a lot to say and most of it true and correct this time...That's how bad we are, how messed up, and a list of adjectives they're throwing around on SportsCenter and College Gameday and Scoreboard that this time I can't argue with).
Oh--and though it'd be nice if it could happen, the Muschamp-to-DC thing, it can't. Actually, in all but name that WAS essentially the way it was supposed to set up when he came here--by his own description, remember: He brought in Weis "to build and run the offense" with merely certain "strong philosophical guidelines" about a "pro-style, tough ball-control offense" that didn't "put the defense in a hole", self-deprecatingly noting that wasn't his "area of specialty", his only specific comments being about how we were "going to out hustle, out perform and out LAST other teams", NO one was gonna "beat us on conditioning or toughness", and we'd therefore "win the 4th quarter"...It sounded reasonable enough, and it actually seemed like it worked somewhat--but who ever thought that that meant having the 104th-ranked offense in Div. I (even worse this season) was acceptable--or that it wouldn't come back to bite us, to BURY us, if left unaddressed???

 

[DRU2012]

Here's another question worth throwing out there:
Does anyone here really subscribe to the "If we beat FSU, maybe he keeps his job"-thinking? I mean, it MAY be so, but SHOULD it be? Though I figure the likelihood of it coming to pass this time to be vanishingly small, things happen--and the 'Noles have a history of blowing close games when too much is on the line (ha ha...yes, I still take pleasure in taking a swipe at 'em, even a weak one--especially when there's a historical validity to it, as here). Thing is, it's now past the point of a symbolic win proving anything--too many bad losses, symbolic or otherwise, the ongoing, even growing disjointed, uninspired and downright aimless play throughout whole sections of each week's games now an embarrassing feature of seemingly each squad at times, about the only "character" I see in our team's play now. Beyond the score and the specific criticisms that can be mounted, THAT is the final damning point...I really do imagine even J. Foley shaking his head at some point late in today's game, reaching for the remote and the off button and muttering "That's enough!"--and NOT merely referring to today's telecast.

 

[Escambia94]

With a $2.5M contract for another four years, Jeremy Foley announced back in the spring that he has the utmost faith in Will Muschamp. He will give Muschamp every opportunity to earn a stay of execution--beat USCe, or beat FSU. What we do not know is what will happen when we do lose both of those games. Florida' s Bull Gator boosters have influenced the Athletic Director decisions in the past, but how much noise can Foley withstand?

No matter when Muschamp gets fired, Foley needs to have Plan B ready to go. Who is Plan B? It needs to be a young up and comer or an experienced veteran. There are no up-and-comers on the market that are available except Lane Kiffin. The only veteran I can think of is Charlie Strong, but his buyout is $5M.

I think Foley will ride out Muschamp until the next up-and-comer emerges, unless Strong becomes frustrated at Louisville's struggles in the ACC.

 

[DRU2012]

With a $2.5M contract for another four years, Jeremy Foley announced back in the spring that he has the utmost faith in Will Muschamp. He will give Muschamp every opportunity to earn a stay of execution--beat USCe, or beat FSU. What we do not know is what will happen when we do lose both of those games. Florida' s Bull Gator boosters have influenced the Athletic Director decisions in the past, but how much noise can Foley withstand?

No matter when Muschamp gets fired, Foley needs to have Plan B ready to go. Who is Plan B? It needs to be a young up and comer or an experienced veteran. There are no up-and-comers on the market that are available except Lane Kiffin. The only veteran I can think of is Charlie Strong, but his buyout is $5M.

I think Foley will ride out Muschamp until the next up-and-comer emerges, unless Strong becomes frustrated at Louisville's struggles in the ACC.

OK, but look at it anther way:
Strong's got ties, family an financial, from what I understand, to the state of Florida as well as his history w/UF. He'd be offered 2 and 1/2 to 3 times his Louisville salary to STAR with, plus a move to the REAL "Bigs", a realistic annual shot at playing in the soon-to-come Championship Playoff Series, and access to the best talent in the southeast, the nation even , and that's a window that doesn't just open every year.
And again: If they want him, they will pay the money. Period. Of course, it'll be done in such a way that it is on Foley's head, his supposed say-so--in other words, his "fault" if "he gets it wrong" this time, never mind how much pressure the folks around, behind and (in their heads) OVER him in wanting/demanding/SCREAMING for it...One more thing: I don't think UF has ever had an African American heading up the Football program, the emblematic "Crowning Jewel" of our athletic program and, let's face it, for many the very soul and identity of our school. High time, really--though completely beside the point in any practical sense.

 

[Escambia94]

The new leader for the next three games must be a player on the field. No amount of coaching will help.

 

[DRU2012]

The new leader for the next three games must be a player on the field. No amount of coaching will help.

"No leader" on the sideline either it seems, at this point.
(Sorry, but an "axis-of-inflexibility" composed of "blame" at one end and "stubborn perseverance" at the other, with little in between, isn't "quality coaching". Talk about "losing your way.")

 

[Escambia94]

I might as well throw out the entire list based on opinions from various Gator sites. The top of the list has the preferred coaches who might be enticed into replacing Will Muschamp in 2014, 2015, 2016, or 2017. What do you think? Note that I highly doubt the ones with stars by their names would ever leave their current schools, but their names keep popping up. The names that are struck out are ones that I do not agree with, but their names keep showing up on dream lists.

1. Charlie Strong, Louisville ($3.7M)
2. Dan Quinn, Seattle Seahawks DC ($1.9M)
3. Mel Tucker, Chicago Bears OC
4. Greg Roman, San Francisco 49ers
5. Steve Spurrier, South Carolina ($3.6M)
   
6. Bob Stoops, OU* ($4.6M)
   
7. Larry Fedora, UNC ($350K)
8. Jon Gruden, ESPN ($4M+)
9. Lane Kiffin, former USCw HC ($2M)
10. Tony Dungy, ESPN ($1.3M)
11. Bill Cowher, CBS
12. Lou Holtz, ESPN ($600K)
13. Art Briles, Baylor ($2.3M) EDIT: signed with Baylor through 2023
14. Gary Andersen, Wisconsin ($2M)
15. Frank Beamer, Va Tech* ($2.3M)
16. Mike Gundy, OK State
17. Mark D'Antonio, Michigan St
18. Bret Bielema, Arkansas*
19. Gus Malzahn, Auburn*
20. Larry Blakeney, Troy
21. Chris Petersen, Boise St
22. Mark Helfrich, Oregon
23. Terry Bowden, Akron
24. David Shaw, Stanford
25. Brady Hoke, Michigan*
26. Dana Holgersen, WVU
27. Larry Coker, UTSA
28. Kevin Sumlin, TAMU*
29. Paul Johnson, Georgia Tech
30. David Cutliffe, Duke
31. Brian Kelly, Notre Dame*
32. Randy Edsall, Maryland
33. Kirk Ferentz, Iowa
34. Jim Mora, UCLA
35. Dennis Franchione, TSU
36. Gary Patterson, TCU*
37. Hugh Freeze, Ole Miss*
38. Gary Pinkel, Missouri*
39. Dabo Sweeney, Clemson
40. Skip Holtz, La. Tech
41. Tommy Tuberville, Cincinnati
42. Butch Jones, Tennessee
43. Mike Leach, Wazzu*
44. Dan McCarney, UNT
45. Urban Meyer, Ohio State
46. George O'Leary, UCF
47. Bo Pellini, Nebraska
48. Bobby Petrino, WKU
49. Rich Rodriguez, Arizona
50. Bill Snyder, Kansas St

 

[DRU2012]

After #1, it just gets to be too much for me to properly (let alone comfortably) digest...I'm at the point where the moment I surrender to any further real emotion in all of this, I'll go over the edge, probably lose it entirely in the face of what will likely be weeks of aimless floundering and seeming inactivity. I have to remove myself, to some extent: assume that something is being done behind-the-scenes. It won't work, of course. Something will eventually get to me--but for now, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it..."

 

[Leakfan12]

Mike Shanahan?

 

[Escambia94]

Mike Shanahan had his turn in Gainesville as OC from 1980 - 1983. He and his son Kyle will never leave the NFL. Mike's $7M salary is twice as much as the highest college football salary.

 

[Escambia94]

As I have illustrated on two or three threads, there is no easy pick for replacing Will Muschamp, but what about replacing the offensive coordinator? Granted, changing to a third OC in four years does not help continuity, but as long as the new OC does not have a drastically different offense there should not be a difficult transition. Here are the top OCs based on several other sites:

1. Kliff Kingsbury (Texas Tech). Technically he is the head coach, but he has retained his OC duties at Texas Tech. At aTm, he made Johnny Manziel from an immature punk that got away with everything into an immature punk that gets away with everything and has a Heisman. He belongs to the coaching tree of Mike Leach, Dana Holgerson, and Kevin Sumlin, and will eventually have an OC under his tree that will make it to this list of OCs that Florida wishes it had.
2. Philip Montgomery (Baylor). Other than the location of The Alamo's basement, this guy is the best-kept secret in the state of Texas. His offenses were explosive at Houston, and he has made Baylor a powerhouse in the Big 12. His players have done well in the NFL, much to the surprise of NFL scouts. ($300K)
   
3. Cam Cameron (LSU). Cam^2 has made LSU scary. He may have singlehandedly boosted Zach Mettenberger's NFL Draft stock above Zach's former competition at Georgia, Aaron Murray. LSU is already drawing the attention of top high school QBs, so LSU might be dangerous for a few years.
4. Doug Nussmeier (Alabama). Look what he has done to turn the above average Bama offense into an explosive threat that can keep up with any offense or defense in the nation. I doubt Florida can grab him, but if Will Muschamp can learn a lesson from his old mentor, Nick Saban, it is that defense wins championships only if the offense puts points on the board from time to time.
   
5. Chad Morris (Clemson). Success has followed Morris from Tulsa to Clemson. He apparently has an eye for talent and has been able to snag recruits from around the country, even SEC country. ($1.3M)
   
6. Mike Bobo (Georgia). Like it or not, he has improved Georgia's offense over the years and he will continue to be the bane of Will Muschamp for as long as Muschamp is head coach at Florida. His QB, Aaron Murray, has destroyed Tim Tebow's and Danny Wuerffel's SEC records, so give him some respect.
   
7. Shannon Dawson (West Virginia). Dana Holgerson may be the mastermind, but he gives play calling duties to Dawson. His FCS resume includes the number one offense in the nation. In the FBS, he has developed three NFL first-rounders. ($300K)
8. Scott Frost (Oregon). The Quack Attack has not missed a beat since transitioning head coaches, and this guy is the reason. Pac-12 fans think he is ready to be a head coach. I think he should try his offensive formula in a league that plays defense before he steps up as a head coach in the Pac-12. ($370K)
   
9. Tony Franklin (California). His offense led the nation in scoring in 2012--outscoring Baylor, Oklahoma State, and Oregon. The question remains as to whether he could duplicate this feat in the SEC. Given how much the rules have changed in the past year to favor offenses and player safety, I think this Pac-12 offense style could work in the SEC.
   
10. James Coley (Miami). Time after time, Miami grabs better offensive players out of high school than Florida.
    
11. Al Borges (Michigan). It is hard to tell if these offenses are good because of the players or the coaching, but they do recruit well in B1G country.
12. Josh Heupel (Oklahoma). His offenses are consistently in the top 10-15, and he keeps pushing out NFL talent. He has coached two Heisman winners and a Big-12 record holder.
13. Clay Helton (USC). Unless the new head coach likes the old USCw staff, this guy could become available. He can recruit even under NCAA sanctions, which is what Florida's recruiting situation has looked like since 2009 or so.
14. Brent Pease (Florida). Yeah. People outside of Gainesville still have faith in Pease. Who knows? Maybe after he is fired he will find his niche elsewhere.
15. Clarence McKinney (Texas A&M). It may be too early to tell whether it is McKinney or the system, but he was the play caller in the record-setting Cotton Bowl performance (633 yards), and he did rack up 628 yards against Alabama's #1 defense.

I think the best short-term fix would be to grab one of the OCs in bold: Philip Montgomery, Chad Morris, Shannon Dawson, Scott Frost, or Tony Franklin.

 

[DRU2012]

@Escambia94, re "New OC, for sure, no matter what..."
That was my/many of us here's first thought some weeks ago--and still in many ways seems the simplest, ONCE-likeliest move, but one whose time may have passed. That is, it would have been (and more importantly would have been seen as) a "proactive move" made by Muschamp himself, and everything that implies...Much has happened since then, though, he's been (or again, has at least looked) stubborn about this and many other things, the losses are piling up--and along with everything else, there is a growing feeling/school-of-thought that "the window may be about to close" on some of the best choices for a replacement, come the off-season.
I believe it has come down to this: By now the "New-OC Scenario" is viewed by many as a kind of stop-gap "half-measure"--a compromise that, right or wrong, fair or not, will only be made if all the practical drawbacks discussed here (contracts, timing, continuity, availability, etc.) are seen to out-weigh the growing (let's face it, in many ways emotional) sentiment that "This isn't working: We better do it NOW!".
Though I was and am very much in favor of just such a move, replacing the OC, "half-measure" or no, my confidence in it being enough has faded over the last few weeks as my confidence in our Head Coach has waned--and THAT has paralleled the growing impression of his own stubbornness and lack of practical and philosophical flexibility. I guess I now stand with those who, when all is said and done, just aren't willing to settle for "better": We see "doing whatever we need to do to get to the top, be the best" as the only road worth traveling for this program. I ask you all, in your heart-of-hearts, are you ready to settle for anything less than "whatever we have to do to get back on-track, keep us headed in that direction"? Do you believe "another new OC" alone is the right "next step"?

 

[DRU2012]

Mike Shanahan had his turn in Gainesville as OC from 1980 - 1983. He and his son Kyle will never leave the NFL. Mike's $7M salary is twice as much as the highest college football salary.

Mike Shanahan?

Anyway, not only is E- right from a purely practical POV, Shanahan himself has essentially disqualified himself from ever coming back--he has virtually ignored/denied his time at UF, it's importance in his growth as an offensive innovator (the original "Florida Fun'n'Gun Offense" was once called, during his time here, the "Shanahan Fun'n'Gun"...it was of course revived/renamed once SS moved in), AND his very stature as a coach early in his career. He never speaks of it or gives us any credit, even used to leave it off his public resume, for some reason. No, it's unclear why at least to us Gators, but the deal is, "He doesn't want any part of us, so we don't want any part of him!" Childish, maybe, but "He started it!" (said in proper "whiny tone" like a tattling 9-yr-old).

 

[Escambia94]

@DRU2012 - I do not think replacing the OC fill fix our woes, but you have to look at how other programs have dealt with similar situations. An Athletic Director hires the Head Coach for a couple million dollars a year, and the Head Coach hires his staff using the budget given to him by the Athletic Director. Florida assistants typically make between $200K to $800K per year.

To get to the point, the Jeremy Foley cannot afford to fire Will Muschamp and pay him $3M until 2017, but he can afford to suggest firing Brent Pease at $490K/year (2012-2014) and bring in another OC. By firing Pease in 2013, Florida only has to eat $490K. By firing Muschamp, Florida would have to eat $3M in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017, AND pay the new coach at least $2M/year, more for some of them (as noted above). None of the other OCs currently at other schools that are on my list make as much as Brent Pease, so any of them should consider this a promotion.

 

[awebbf5]

To kill a snake you cut the head off, just saying

 

[DRU2012]

To kill a snake you cut the head off, just saying

@DRU2012 - I do not think replacing the OC fill fix our woes, but you have to look at how other programs have dealt with similar situations. An Athletic Director hires the Head Coach for a couple million dollars a year, and the Head Coach hires his staff using the budget given to him by the Athletic Director. Florida assistants typically make between $200K to $800K per year.

To get to the point, the Jeremy Foley cannot afford to fire Will Muschamp and pay him $3M until 2017, but he can afford to suggest firing Brent Pease at $490K/year (2012-2014) and bring in another OC. By firing Pease in 2013, Florida only has to eat $490K. By firing Muschamp, Florida would have to eat $3M in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017, AND pay the new coach at least $2M/year, more for some of them (as noted above). None of the other OCs currently at other schools that are on my list make as much as Brent Pease, so any of them should consider this a promotion.

There it is. Above you have the two alternate views. They are in fact not "opposites", for the very reasons E- outlines. And E-, I understand and accept your point as a practical explanation of one of the major considerations should Muschamp NOT be fired--but I am also convinced that there is a growing feeling among a number of powerful boosters that reflects aweb's attitude, "money be damned". I'll not be surprised at either move at this point, nor a part of me even especially disappointed in the less dramatic of the two, whatever the reasons, as long as SOMETHING is done, and soon.
The rest of me though fears it may well be "too little, too late", especially considering we not only slide further back, but meanwhile maybe miss out on "our guy" while we basically "wait and see" for one more year--and all for money? I have come the difficult road from "change the OC" some weeks ago to the "cut off the head" approach more and more as time (and everything else) has passed. My thoughts on all of this can be followed evolving above, the inevitable tug-o'-war between emotion and practicality taking center stage as "patience" was abused, frittered away, had it's chance and now is all but gone. I don't know if you are right about the money details making all the difference, E-, but as I posed it a little differently above, the question still remains, "How do you really feel about it? What would you have us do if the decision were based solely on what you think/feel is the right way to go, the best thing for our program's future?"