miltongator
Gator Fan
Jesse Palmer basically said today that he doesn't know how Muschamp survives this loss. Ta Ta Mussy.
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Gator Bites, Week 13: Florida Gators vs Georgia Southern Eagles
- Thread starter Escambia94
- Start date
miltongator
Gator Fan
In the post-game, Muschamp looked like a whipped dog. He knows he's gone and has blown his chance in the bigs.
He has looked like a whipped Bulldog for five or six weeks now. It is getting annoying.
He is a whipped bulldog (he was a safety for them 1991-94, where his teams didn't beat the gators). I doubt he'll survive after season, just ask Lloyd Carr.
@Escambia94, @GatorChomp, @miltongator, @awebbf5, @Dale J. Rodriguez,
GatorChomp makes the counterpoint nicely: The "financial" considerations are ALSO actually lined up against Muschamp and Foley here. And as for "all the sports": FLORIDA IS A FOOTBALL SCHOOL. That is so completely and thoroughly the case that NOTHING is gonna change it--least of all any kind of proud effort to support a hardened position. This one has become emotional on BOTH sides of the question. Whatever FOLEY'S reasons for having gone this far out on a "Won't do it, no matter WHAT"-limb, there are SO many reasons to make a (drastic) change now that I just don't see how the Regents can ignore it all, try to "float above the fray" any longer. Something WILL happen, injuries or no. "Blinded by logic", in this case "faulty logic", may be the best way to describe the arguments for why it SHOULDN'T happen. I'm not even gonna try to reason this one out anymore, try to convince anyone. Far as I can see, EVERY ONE of these arguments is flawed to some degree--in most cases SELF-contradicting from the start (for eg., E-, by your own count that our 45 scholarship players, on one of the most recently successful teams IN THE SEC, recruiting in one of America's most fertile states, gets whipped AT HOME against a D-II team with 47, combed-from-the-relative "leftovers from the LEFTOVERS"???) Some of the "reasons" and much of the BLAME may be "unfair"--but since when is THAT a reason a losing coach with a decimated line-up and his back against the wall has been "given another year" at a major, hallowed program, when he closes a massive losing streak with a loss to a far inferior and nowhere NEAR as talented OR funded a program??? And I can't stress this enough, so I'll return to it: It is the very FINANCIAL considerations that you rest your argument on that will ultimately tip the scales AGAINST "standing pat", or "one more year".
OK--that's just an "opinion", no more inherently "right" or "valid" than your own, at least for now E-...But knowing I'M ready to turn away in disgust by the middle of ANOTHER season resulting from a refusal to make a BIG change NOW, then I have to believe there are a lot more fans on BOTH sides of The Swamp who won't wait THAT long to turn away--loudly, angrily, for years to come. Financially, if not practically (depending on who we eventually get--and how good they really ARE), we'll be virtually starting over again from where we were 2-plus decades ago, when we at least were able to bring in our "designated Hero", Steve Spurrier, to pick up the pieces and begin to rewrite our history. Whomever IS "out there", we won't have THAT option this time--or anything CLOSE, if we "wait and see" what happens NEXT year.
GatorChomp makes the counterpoint nicely: The "financial" considerations are ALSO actually lined up against Muschamp and Foley here. And as for "all the sports": FLORIDA IS A FOOTBALL SCHOOL. That is so completely and thoroughly the case that NOTHING is gonna change it--least of all any kind of proud effort to support a hardened position. This one has become emotional on BOTH sides of the question. Whatever FOLEY'S reasons for having gone this far out on a "Won't do it, no matter WHAT"-limb, there are SO many reasons to make a (drastic) change now that I just don't see how the Regents can ignore it all, try to "float above the fray" any longer. Something WILL happen, injuries or no. "Blinded by logic", in this case "faulty logic", may be the best way to describe the arguments for why it SHOULDN'T happen. I'm not even gonna try to reason this one out anymore, try to convince anyone. Far as I can see, EVERY ONE of these arguments is flawed to some degree--in most cases SELF-contradicting from the start (for eg., E-, by your own count that our 45 scholarship players, on one of the most recently successful teams IN THE SEC, recruiting in one of America's most fertile states, gets whipped AT HOME against a D-II team with 47, combed-from-the-relative "leftovers from the LEFTOVERS"???) Some of the "reasons" and much of the BLAME may be "unfair"--but since when is THAT a reason a losing coach with a decimated line-up and his back against the wall has been "given another year" at a major, hallowed program, when he closes a massive losing streak with a loss to a far inferior and nowhere NEAR as talented OR funded a program??? And I can't stress this enough, so I'll return to it: It is the very FINANCIAL considerations that you rest your argument on that will ultimately tip the scales AGAINST "standing pat", or "one more year".
OK--that's just an "opinion", no more inherently "right" or "valid" than your own, at least for now E-...But knowing I'M ready to turn away in disgust by the middle of ANOTHER season resulting from a refusal to make a BIG change NOW, then I have to believe there are a lot more fans on BOTH sides of The Swamp who won't wait THAT long to turn away--loudly, angrily, for years to come. Financially, if not practically (depending on who we eventually get--and how good they really ARE), we'll be virtually starting over again from where we were 2-plus decades ago, when we at least were able to bring in our "designated Hero", Steve Spurrier, to pick up the pieces and begin to rewrite our history. Whomever IS "out there", we won't have THAT option this time--or anything CLOSE, if we "wait and see" what happens NEXT year.
Joseph Haskins
Gator Fan
What if they just moved musgo to d-cordinator and moved Mr. Brent to head couch?
Unfortunately, Will Muschamp cannot go from Gator head coach to Gator defensive coordinator. I guess he has to go elsewhere. If you believe the rumor mill, we will have a new head coach and offensive coordinator next year. Don't get excited, because there is nobody available on the market that is going to fix this.
Check this out. Way back in week 4 when Florida was playing Tennessee, CBS Sports analysts were talking about a conversation that occurred over ten years ago between LSU head coach Nick Saban and LSU defensive coordinator Will Muschamp, where Muschamp warned Saban to not schedule Georgia Southern's triple option nullifying LSU's size, speed, and talent, especially with LSU's injury and depth issues (they lost starting QB Matt Mauk and several other players and lost 4 of their last 6 games, and needed a miracle to beat Guy Morriss' and Brent Pease's Kentucky team!).
@DRU2012 Not to nit-pick on your statement about Florida solely being a football school:
Sports revenues (rank, revenue, expenses, profit):
5Univ. of Florida (Football)$68,715,750$24,457,557$44,258,193
21University of Louisville (Basketball)$25,890,003$9,089,769$16,800,234
90University of Louisville (Football)$15,537,276$12,222,307$3,314,969
99Florida State Univ. (Football)$18,958,861$16,345,376$2,613,485
105Univ. of Florida (Basketball)$10,184,136$7,908,661$2,275,475
124Florida St (Basketball)$5,756,857$5,126,393$630,464
Florida is in the top 20 for basketball revenue, and top 5 for football revenue, just as Louisville, the poster child of dual-sport success, is ranked for both sports. This is important to the decision to keep or fire coaches, because the athletic director cannot consider one sport in isolation.
The announced attendance, primarily based on longtime donators and alumni that buy season tickets, was still 82k. There were 5200+ unsold tickets from the finicky students and local populace, which is nothing to scoff at, but is not the primary driver for firing the head coach. I was actually hoping the announced attendance would be 75k or less, because that would be a sign that the donators and alumni were withdrawing support for Will Muschamp. Speaking of support for Muschamp, I know that there has been talk of players not playing hard for the head coach, but until the Athletic Director sees signs that the players are not supportive of the coach, it is just speculation on the part of the fanbase that the players need a better coach for motivation.
Summary: I do not think Will Muschamp is going to lead the Gators to success against FSU or in 2014, but Jeremy Foley and the big-ticket boosters and alumni apparently do. Until those folks stop believing, and until Florida starts hurting more in the wallet, Will Muschamp will *probably* come back in 2014, whether I like it or not.
Sports revenues (rank, revenue, expenses, profit):
5Univ. of Florida (Football)$68,715,750$24,457,557$44,258,193
21University of Louisville (Basketball)$25,890,003$9,089,769$16,800,234
90University of Louisville (Football)$15,537,276$12,222,307$3,314,969
99Florida State Univ. (Football)$18,958,861$16,345,376$2,613,485
105Univ. of Florida (Basketball)$10,184,136$7,908,661$2,275,475
124Florida St (Basketball)$5,756,857$5,126,393$630,464
Florida is in the top 20 for basketball revenue, and top 5 for football revenue, just as Louisville, the poster child of dual-sport success, is ranked for both sports. This is important to the decision to keep or fire coaches, because the athletic director cannot consider one sport in isolation.
The announced attendance, primarily based on longtime donators and alumni that buy season tickets, was still 82k. There were 5200+ unsold tickets from the finicky students and local populace, which is nothing to scoff at, but is not the primary driver for firing the head coach. I was actually hoping the announced attendance would be 75k or less, because that would be a sign that the donators and alumni were withdrawing support for Will Muschamp. Speaking of support for Muschamp, I know that there has been talk of players not playing hard for the head coach, but until the Athletic Director sees signs that the players are not supportive of the coach, it is just speculation on the part of the fanbase that the players need a better coach for motivation.
Summary: I do not think Will Muschamp is going to lead the Gators to success against FSU or in 2014, but Jeremy Foley and the big-ticket boosters and alumni apparently do. Until those folks stop believing, and until Florida starts hurting more in the wallet, Will Muschamp will *probably* come back in 2014, whether I like it or not.
@Escambia94,
I would take the very same numbers, project from there what that means re all the "ancillary revenues" in geometric terms--and use them to support MY point...but even though that is the clear case financially, it is simply, ultimately the gut-level, emotional REALITY of the statement, "FLORIDA IS A FOOTBALL SCHOOL", that speaks for itself. I'm sorry, my friend, but it seems now you really HAVE pretty well dug in your heels and armored yourself in a kind of determined, self-perpetuating and refuse-to-be-budged personal rationale. I'm not even still convinced that you subscribe to all aspects of your own position: a closer reading of the last few entries are increasingly "de-personalized", it seems--you are more and more separating what you may feel from what you THINK WILL HAPPEN, and why.
So I won't argue the point anymore, 'cause the more I do, the more "facts" and "logic" you summon in an ever-higher, ever-tighter wall around yourself.
I suspect that if left alone on this one, you will eventually, likely come around to the "big picture"-view that finally forced ME to re-evaluate from the POV of, basically, "Where are we at, where are we going, and how long, how MUCH are we paying for every fear-of-the-unknown day we rationalize what we've seen so far--and put off doing something about it?"
I agree with part of your final statement, its conclusion may well turn out to be the case (but the "big-money boosters" are more and more lining up AGAINST keeping Muschamp, and are already a firm majority against retaining Pease, from what I understand--but it is the Regents Council that holds final say here, and they are more cautious and deliberate by nature and tradition...a fine demonstration of the my dad's old maxim, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee"), and will dither for a while regardless of the consequences for everyone involved: Nothing is certain, everything still hanging in the balance.
(Also, I like and respect you too much to either "try to win" an argument whose precipitating reality I am saddened by in the first place, or for that matter to be so sure I am right in everything I say. However, I am by now solidly enough convinced of the essential points here that I'm at least as "unmovable" in my views as you apparently are in yours--so I suppose it's time to call a truce, acknowledge our respective positions, and move on.)
I would take the very same numbers, project from there what that means re all the "ancillary revenues" in geometric terms--and use them to support MY point...but even though that is the clear case financially, it is simply, ultimately the gut-level, emotional REALITY of the statement, "FLORIDA IS A FOOTBALL SCHOOL", that speaks for itself. I'm sorry, my friend, but it seems now you really HAVE pretty well dug in your heels and armored yourself in a kind of determined, self-perpetuating and refuse-to-be-budged personal rationale. I'm not even still convinced that you subscribe to all aspects of your own position: a closer reading of the last few entries are increasingly "de-personalized", it seems--you are more and more separating what you may feel from what you THINK WILL HAPPEN, and why.
So I won't argue the point anymore, 'cause the more I do, the more "facts" and "logic" you summon in an ever-higher, ever-tighter wall around yourself.
I suspect that if left alone on this one, you will eventually, likely come around to the "big picture"-view that finally forced ME to re-evaluate from the POV of, basically, "Where are we at, where are we going, and how long, how MUCH are we paying for every fear-of-the-unknown day we rationalize what we've seen so far--and put off doing something about it?"
I agree with part of your final statement, its conclusion may well turn out to be the case (but the "big-money boosters" are more and more lining up AGAINST keeping Muschamp, and are already a firm majority against retaining Pease, from what I understand--but it is the Regents Council that holds final say here, and they are more cautious and deliberate by nature and tradition...a fine demonstration of the my dad's old maxim, "A camel is a horse designed by a committee"), and will dither for a while regardless of the consequences for everyone involved: Nothing is certain, everything still hanging in the balance.
(Also, I like and respect you too much to either "try to win" an argument whose precipitating reality I am saddened by in the first place, or for that matter to be so sure I am right in everything I say. However, I am by now solidly enough convinced of the essential points here that I'm at least as "unmovable" in my views as you apparently are in yours--so I suppose it's time to call a truce, acknowledge our respective positions, and move on.)
There is no truce to call. All I am pointing out is the school's position: revenue, expense, profit. This is the position of the University of Florida [reference]. The reference reports football and basketball, but the numbers below reflect football only. The projected loss for Florida is around 2%-3%, but is not factored here and cannot be reported until reports are due to the public in December. Edit: I re-factored the figures to account for a worst-case 3% loss and it changed the numbers in red, which is lost in the noise.
I have to assume Jeremy Foley has looked at his list and come up with the same conclusions in order of cost:
I have to assume Jeremy Foley has looked at his list and come up with the same conclusions in order of cost:
- Fire Will Muschamp and get Charlie Strong this year, pay Muschamp $2M for each year before January 2016 ($8M in 2013), buy out Strong at $5M, and offer Strong a raise above his $3.7M salary
- Expense = $8M to fire Muschamp + $8M for Strong = 24% (24.1%) of the revenue = 36% (37.3%) of the profit in 2013
- One more year like this one, then it becomes more favorable to cut Will Muschamp in 2014
- Expense = $6M for Muschamp + $4.375M for strong = 15% of revenue, 24% of profit
- Two more years of this crap and fire Muschamp
- Expense = $4M for Muschamp + $3.75M for Strong = 11% of revenue, 18% of profit
- Hire Charlie Strong at the conclusion of Muschamp's contract expiration on January 30, 2016
- Expense = $2.5M buy out + $4M salary = 10% of revenue, 15% of profit
- Three more years of this crap and fire Muschamp, hire Strong
- Expense = $2M for Muschamp + $3.125M for Strong = 8% of revenue, 12% of profit
- Keep Will Muschamp, have Muschamp replace parts of the offensive coaching staff
- Expense = $2M to fire Brent Pease, $1M to hire a replacement = 4% of the revenue = 6% of the profit
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GatorChomp
Gator Fan
The problems with this model are:
- you ignore donations which are greater than football revenue. Losing and especially sticking with a coach almost everybody now wants to see gone could have a very detrimental impact here.
- you assume revenue stays the same despite the losing and fans being not only unhappy with Muschamp but in addition, possibly extremely angry with Foley. What happens when they stop buying tickets? What happens when people stop buying gear at nearly the rate they do now? They will if we are saddled with an obviously failed coach.
Finally, I simply do not buy the notion that its strictly a financial decision. Foley wanted Muschamp and chose Muschamp and his ego and professional reputation are now tied up in Muschamp being successful. He gave Muschamp such a huge buyout to deliberately make it difficult to fire him....which is now conveniently trotted out as a reason not to do so.
- you ignore donations which are greater than football revenue. Losing and especially sticking with a coach almost everybody now wants to see gone could have a very detrimental impact here.
- you assume revenue stays the same despite the losing and fans being not only unhappy with Muschamp but in addition, possibly extremely angry with Foley. What happens when they stop buying tickets? What happens when people stop buying gear at nearly the rate they do now? They will if we are saddled with an obviously failed coach.
Finally, I simply do not buy the notion that its strictly a financial decision. Foley wanted Muschamp and chose Muschamp and his ego and professional reputation are now tied up in Muschamp being successful. He gave Muschamp such a huge buyout to deliberately make it difficult to fire him....which is now conveniently trotted out as a reason not to do so.
Dale J. Rodriguez
Gator Fan
Keeping Muschamp, maybe the end of Foley's Long reign as AD. I hope he is doing what is right, he must have some information that we don't know.
@GatorChomp :
These figures include all contributions to football. Donations are big, but they are earmarked with percentages going different places. By law, the University reports everything, and by NCAA bylaw breaks it out by sport.
I looked at the historical figures in the reference I linked and projected a 3% decline because that is what history shows. There is a year delay between bad seasons and major losses. I would be lying if I projected a 10% decline "just because".
You might be right in your third point, but we have no data to prove or disprove that. How does one measure ego or pride? We cannot measure it, but we can speculate.
@Dale J. Rodriguez Foley is still the best AD in the business. His paycheck is on the line, not the fans'. Florida is a top 5-10 football money school and top 20 basketball money school. Our 3% loss is equal to FSU's entire basketball budget. Our basketball profit is 95% of FSU football profit! Our basketball budget is barely smaller smaller than Louisville's football and basketball budget!
Obviously this cannot last forever, but as long as Muschamp improves next year we are stuck with him unless the next Steve Spurrier becomes available.
These figures include all contributions to football. Donations are big, but they are earmarked with percentages going different places. By law, the University reports everything, and by NCAA bylaw breaks it out by sport.
I looked at the historical figures in the reference I linked and projected a 3% decline because that is what history shows. There is a year delay between bad seasons and major losses. I would be lying if I projected a 10% decline "just because".
You might be right in your third point, but we have no data to prove or disprove that. How does one measure ego or pride? We cannot measure it, but we can speculate.
@Dale J. Rodriguez Foley is still the best AD in the business. His paycheck is on the line, not the fans'. Florida is a top 5-10 football money school and top 20 basketball money school. Our 3% loss is equal to FSU's entire basketball budget. Our basketball profit is 95% of FSU football profit! Our basketball budget is barely smaller smaller than Louisville's football and basketball budget!
Obviously this cannot last forever, but as long as Muschamp improves next year we are stuck with him unless the next Steve Spurrier becomes available.
Joseph Haskins
Gator Fan
You also have to remember that in the sec if try to build a team in the amount of time mustgo is tring to do it in, you will get passed by. Florida needs to be a top ten team now or players and coaches will go where success is right now or just around the cornor.
